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  #21  
Old 04-25-2001, 10:03 PM
Tom
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Default Tears for Carol's eyes/VERY LONG

No Carol. Jews and blacks could not desecrate these symbols because they were not free.But today, Anyone is now free to desecrate the US Flag,thanks to the freedoms won by hundreds of thousands of brave men and women giving their lives in Europe against an oppressive tyrant, hundreds of brave men and women killed in our own country (black, white, asian, Jewish) so that black Americans could burn ANY flag they chose, those same black Americans that had the guts to fight for the rights of the Jews, the Poles, the Italians etc in Europe. This "mixed" country of mongrels who have banded together so that we have the absolute right to burn, curse, speak, publish and expouse our opinions in any way we wish,the same people who have fought all over the World so people such as yourself can burn the flag for whatever reason you see fit. Will I understand your reason for doing it; NO, will/did I defend your right to do so; YES. I'm fairly certain you can not say the same. Do I hate you for your poorly veiled racist views, no, I pity you. I have learned that you can drop millions of pounds of bombs, expend millions of rounds of ordnance, burn people from their homes. but you can only change the blind hatred and ignorance of people like yourself by education and example.

Many of you have expressed disdain at President Clinton's views on the Military, but I had the honor of hearing this address at Arlington National Cemetery Last year, a revered place where my Uncle was a member of the 3rd Infantry (Old Guard) Commonly known as the "Tomb Guard," the Soldiers that guard the remains of our fallen men 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Clinton's Speech
Thank you very much. Secretary Cohen, thank you for your kind remarks and for your leadership. General Ivany, Superintendent Metzler, Colonel Durham, Secretary West, Secretary Slater, General Shelton and the Joint Chiefs, General McCaffrey, members of Congress and the diplomatic corps, veterans and family members, members of the Armed Services, members of the Armed Services who gave their lives for our country, my fellow Americans.
We are blessed again today, together again in this magnificent amphitheater, in our National Cemetery, to remember our fallen heroes. We honor, as well, all the proud veterans who would have made the same sacrifice if God had but called His heroes home in a different order.

As you entered the grounds this morning you saw every gravestone decorated with an American flag. Indeed, this day of remembrance was first known as Decoration Day, launched in 1868 by the Commander in Chief of the Grand Army of the Republic who designated this day for decorating the graves of comrades who died in defense of their country. Some still mark this holiday in the same way.

On Thursday before Memorial Day, this year and every year for more than 40 years now, the entire regiment of 1,200 soldiers of the 3rd U.S.Infantry has honored America's fallen heroes by placing American flags before every single one of the more than 260,000 gravestones here at Arlington; then remaining on patrol 24 hours a day all weekend long to make sure each flag remains standing.

All across our country in small towns and large cities, veterans groups represented here today perform the same sacred ritual. I want to recognize and thank the members of the Old Guard, and the veterans all across America for their patriotism, devotion, and commitment to honoring the original meaning of Memorial Day. I thank them very, very much.

Arlington's hallowed earth embraces the bodies of servicemen and women from every one of our nation's wars. Every generation has borne a share of the burden of defending the Republic, and giving to each succeeding generation the chance for freedom. Presidents Kennedy and Taft are buried here. Generals Pershing and Bradley are buried here. Admirals Halsey and Rickover are buried here; as are John Foster Dulles and Oliver Wendell Holmes, George Marshall and Audie Murphy.

Three of the Marines we remember forever for raising our flag on Iwo Jima -- they are buried here. And, of course, all the unknown, unsung heroes of more than two centuries of fighting tyranny are buried here. This is sacred soil, and the heart and the history of America.

Our hearts go out today especially to those our departed veterans left behind -- the young women who had to cancel a wedding, young mothers who raised their children alone, mothers and fathers who faced perhaps life's greatest heartbreak. To all the families who have placed a Gold Star in their window, I renew our nation's enduring pledge -- the United States will always honor and never forsake its fallen heroes. We will not abandon their families. And wherever it takes, as long as it takes, we will keep our commitment to seek the fullest possible accounting.

This morning we were honored to receive at the White House the sons and daughters and spouses of servicemen still missing in action. There is no more compelling way to understand how important our continuous efforts are to the hearts and minds of Americans than to hear it from family members themselves. And that is why I am pleased to announce to you today that the United States and North Korea have agreed to resume the talks the first week of June in Kuala Lumpur in hopes of resuming recovery operations in North Korea this year.

As we prepare to observe the 50th anniversary of the beginning of the Korean War, on June 25th, we reaffirm our commitment to the more than 1.7 million Americans who served in Korea, the more than 36,000 who lost their lives there, and the more than 8,100 still missing.

I also want to tell you today about the latest American soldier to come home. Just last week our team of specialists identified finally and official the remains of a soldier of the 1st Calvary Regiment of the Americal division, whose Huey helicopter was flying in the weeds at 25 feet over Laos in the summer of 1970 when it lost power and crashed. The young soldier died immediately. When others rushed to the scene to bring his body out, they were forced back by enemy fire. When they tried again a short time later, they were again forced back. But finally, America returned to recover its own.

Years later, with the help of several governments, extensive interviews, excavations, and DNA testing, a positive identification was made. Army Specialist 4 John E. Crowley, of Williamson, New York, forever 20 years old, was laid to rest here in Arlington Cemetery on Friday in a simple ceremony attended by his mother, brother, cousins, nieces, and nephews. For the life and service of Specialist Crowley, for the sacrifice of his family and every family that has suffered such loss, America is eternally grateful.

We are also grateful for the many groups like Rolling Thunder, who come to Washington to advocate for our POW-MIA families. We hear you. We certainly hear Rolling Thunder when they're here. We welcome you, and we are honored to work with you.

To preserve the peace, we must never forget the sacrifices that have paved the way to peace. Four years ago, Carmella LaSpada, a longtime advocate for families who have lost a loved one in conflict, asked a group of school children what Memorial Day means. And the children said, that's the day the pool opens. (Laughter.) Well, that's not their fault that that was their answer. We adults must do more to teach them.

That's why Carmella worked with Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Douglass and so many of you here today to launch a new national commitment to put "memorial" back in Memorial Day. So today, for the third straight year, I ask all Americans, in a profoundly symbolic and important act of national unity, to pause, wherever they are at 3:00 p.m. local time, to observe a national moment of remembrance for America's fallen heroes.

At that time, the somber tones of Taps, our national requiem, will be played all across America, and beyond -- in the U.S. Capitol, in the Vietnam Memorial, at Ellis Island and the Liberty Bell, in VA hospitals and national parks, on Voice of America and Armed Forces Network, and in hundreds of places we Americans will be gathering today. When little boys and girls turn to their parents and whisper, "Mommy, Daddy, what's happening," a new generation of Americans will have a chance to hear about the defenders of freedom.

As we remember their sacrifice, as Secretary Cohen so eloquently pointed out, we must also resolve to fulfill the obligation the rest of us incurred with their sacrifice -- to keep America free and strong. If those who fought and died for us could talk to us on this Memorial Day, they might well ask, America, have you made our sacrifice matter? At the dawn of a new century, Americans can answer that question with solemn pride. Today we are fortunate to be the most powerful and prosperous nation on Earth, with a military respected around the world. We could say, yes, America has made your sacrifice matter.

America is at peace. And the risk of war that would scar the lives of a whole generation has been vastly reduced. Yes, America has made your sacrifice matter. You fought for freedom in foreign lands, knowing it would protect our freedom at home. Today, freedom advances all around the world, and for the first time in all human history, more than half the world's people choose their own leaders. Yes, America has made your sacrifice matter.

You fought to conquer tyranny and bring unity to Europe, where more than 100,000 American heroes are now buried. You gave your lives in places like Flanders Field and Normandy. But today Europe is more united, more free, more peaceful than anytime in history. We have three new allies in NATO and many new partners across Europe's old Cold War divide. Central Europe is free and flourishing. Soldiers from almost every European country, the most bitter former adversaries among them, now serve under a single command, keeping the peace in Bosnia, in Kosovo. Yes, America is making your sacrifice matter.

We have more to do. Later today I will leave for Europe to meet with our partners in the European Union in Portugal, and to make the first visit of an American President to Berlin as the capital of a free and undivided Germany. We will continue our work with our European allies for peace and freedom -- to make their sacrifice matter.

I will visit Russia, the former adversary with whom we are trying so hard to build a new partnership and a safer world. Russia has just seen its first transition from one democratically-elected government to another in 1,000 years of history. For the first time an American President will speak to a democratically-elected Russian Parliament. As we support those changes, we will continue to push for greater and deeper ones -- to make their sacrifice matter.

I will go to Ukraine, a large country with over 60 million people, struggling to cast off the bitter legacy of communism; located in a strategic place that will determine much of the future of the 21st century; to support those who favor freedom and prosperity and stability -- to make their sacrifice matter.

The world of today would not be recognized by those who lived at the beginning of the Cold War. Old adversaries have become allies; dictatorships have become democracies; Europe is more peaceful and united; the communism we fought to contain has collapsed, reformed or been discredited around the world.

Heartened by our progress toward peace and prosperity, we will pursue the two remaining challenges in fulfilling the age-old vision of a Europe peaceful, democratic and undivided -- bringing Southeastern Europe and the former states of the Soviet Union into the community of democracies.

On this first Memorial Day of the 21st century, the 8th and last Memorial Day I have had the honor to address the people of this country in this place as President, I give thanks to all those who have stood their ground to defend freedom and democracy and human dignity. And especially to those and their families who made the ultimate sacrifice.

Americans never fought for empire, for territory, for dominance -- but many, many Americans gave their lives for freedom. As we stand at the dawn of a new century they never saw, but did so much to guarantee for us, far from fading into the past, their sacrifice is paving the way to our future.

Thirty, forty, fifty years after our fallen veterans have gone, we can say, glory hallelujah, your truth is marching on. May God bless you all, and God bless America.
  #22  
Old 04-25-2001, 11:42 PM
CES
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Default THANK YOU Thomas E. D'Alfonso *PIC*

Thank you Tom . . .

And truly heart felt regards,

Charlie y "una Cibaeña"

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.com/levitow-funeral04.jpg
  #23  
Old 04-25-2001, 11:51 PM
Carol
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Default Re: Tears for Carol's eyes/VERY LONG

what am i missing here--jews and blacks couldn't desecrate the flags that represented everything that was evil in society because they were not free--am i stupid --that's the very reason for the protest --do you seriously suggest that a black man or a jew would not have been justified in desecrating the symbols of oppression and evil--that the prisoners of war in japanese camps would not be justified in desecrating the japanese flag--get your head out of the sand -we're talking about the right to burn a flag in protest--you think the weak, the oppressed the victims of hatred shouldn't be entitled to that form of protest-- if you do i feel sorry for every veteran that had given his/her life for freedom--like i said -with people like you --god bless america
  #24  
Old 04-26-2001, 12:11 AM
Tom
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Default Thank you Carol

""like i said -with people like you --god bless america "

Thank you Carol, in your own blind rage you have said what I was trying to convey all along, because of people like me, God does bless America, and with people like you, there will always be those with their head stuck in the sand
  #25  
Old 04-26-2001, 12:25 AM
Carol
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Default Re: THANK YOU Thomas E. D'Alfonso

why do you think for one moment that anyone that feels that burning a flag in protest is unpatriotic--you think that i am not aware of the sacrifices that have been made to preserve our freedoms--that i have no respect for the men and women that have given their lives to protect us--i see a picture of arlington-i don't see a picture of a concentration camp, a japanese death march or a black man lynched from a tree--blacks, jews and prisoners of war don't have the right to burn the flag of their oppressors?---i think they do and i can't believe for one moment that in your heart of hearts you don't feel the same--your veterans fought for the right to preserve these freedoms--why do you want to take them away by denying this right to protest--shame on you
  #26  
Old 04-26-2001, 02:34 AM
CES
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Default Re: for Carol's eyes/ long . . .

>>> ". . . what am i missing here--jews and blacks couldn't desecrate the flags that represented everything that was evil in society because they were not free--am i stupid . . . " <<<

Carol,

Jews, blacks, prisoners of war in japanese camps and the those concentration camp
prisoners in the Balkans, etc. etc., were all free to desecrate any national flag of their
choosing, SUBJECT TO THE PAIN OF DEATH. Free, in this context, seems to carry
particular significance as to just who was going live and who would pay with their
blood when exercising "their rights" as granted by whom? ? ? Carol, look at your
very words and tell us how those oppressed and imprisoned people were free to do
any thing, let alone spit in the face of their enemies? ? ? Remember, you are the one
questioning the intelligence of visitors to this forum.

In the beginnings of this thread you assumed that you could speak for a few/ some/
all (none ?) Canadians ( >>> " . . . who along with the vast majority of canadians
are constantly amused at how easily american sensibilities are offended . . . " <<<
). Having said that I'll make the assumption that you are presently living in that
par-o-dice on earth, the Dominican Republic, am I correct? Since, in your words, the
flag of the republic is "only a piece of cloth" march your self over to "Parque
Independencia" in "Zona Colonial" and try this little experiment: Get a hold of the
largest Dominican flag you can find and very forcefully (like you really mean it) shred
the flag too pieces and set it ablaze, maybe for good measure verbally insult the flag
and the DR at the same time. If the assembled crowd becomes just a bit 'testy' and
demands to know some of your inter most feelings then you can tell them you
assumed nobody would much care what the hell you did, after all "it's a free
country". I'm quite sure the news media (make sure you call them before hand,
makes for better coverage) will accurately report, in detail, the events of the day.
Lots o' luck (you'll need it) and . . .

Regards,

. . . CES
  #27  
Old 04-26-2001, 10:13 AM
CES
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Default Re: Carol

Carol,

Since you are answering to my Arlington post I'm compelled to point out the following:

1. I'm pretty sure that I've never said that jews, blacks, etc. etc. did not have the "right" or prerogative to protest, just that if you are martyred for your actions it sort of 'sucks'.

2. I'm not advocating taking any thing away from any body.

3. And yes, "shame on you"/ me for attempting to point out that you (Carol) have made the assumption that most Canadians think that the majority of USAmericans are over sensitive sops when it comes to flag & country. Your insistence that a nations' flag is "only a piece of cloth" seems to be completely off base when taken the context of just who is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.

Regards,

. . . CES
  #28  
Old 04-26-2001, 01:42 PM
rabble rouser
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Default Re: Carol, CES & Tom

to ces & tom, unfortunately carol is not alone in her opinion. just this year the premier of one of our provinces had the audacity to call the maple leaf a 'red rag'. he later
"apologized" and said that he had been misunderstood. there was some debate about the appropriateness of such a comment but he is still premier and likely the issue will be forgotten by the next election.

since Canadians have only had a flag of their own for 38 years- after flying the Union Jack for almost 100 years; since we don't have a story like that of betsy ross(i hope i have the correct name)sewing the first flag, and since we don't have a pledge of allegiance some individuals in this country do not hold any particular reverence for our flag.
as a child i was taught that the flag was raised at sunrise and lowered by sunset. these days schools and government offices leave it flying 24 hours a day-union rules or cost cutting i am sure would be the explanation. but not for one second do i think that this lack of reverence by some could be turned into a willingness to desecrate a nation's flag by anymore than just a miiscule percentage of Canadians.
  #29  
Old 04-26-2001, 03:58 PM
Tom
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Default Carol. try and comprehend what you read

Where does anyone say that you do not have the RIGHT to burn the flag? I disagree with that RIGHT, but accept it as ignorance on the part of the "protester"

If you read any of the remarks regarding your posts, each and everyone agrees that people have the "right" to burn, trample or whatever the US Flag, they (we) just do not happen to agree with ,that method of unpatriotic (YES someone who desecrates the Stars and Stripes is unpatriotic)expression of your "rights."

You can stand in front of the Tomb Guards at Arlington and rip up a US Flag and no one (At least the Guard) will bother you, but instead, try trampling the flag at a lounge outside a US Marine Depot, Naval Station, AF Base, Army Ft, Coast Guard Facility etc and let the soldiers and sailors "express" their rights to demonstrate
  #30  
Old 04-26-2001, 04:34 PM
Carol
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Default Once more for the gool ole boys

gentlemen please--there has always been one issue here and one issue only---is it justifiable (in the philosophical moral sense)to burn the flag as a means of protest--i have never been concerned with the country in which it is burned and whether or not such conduct invokes criminal sanctions--those are irrelevant considerations-Tom and his cohorts say "never"--persons who hold a contrary view are the scum of the earth-gentlemen, it can't be justifiable in some cases and not in others--again do any of you seriouly suggest that blacks in the good old day of southern justice would not have been justified in burning the state flag in protest--the jews not justified in burning the nazi flag--if any of you say "no" then i surely pity you
the flag is targeted as a means of protest for the very reason that it does invoke so much emotionalism---read the threads here and see what a low life scum bag i am for daring to hold this view--and it's this emotionalism that interferes with thier inability to grasp the real issue--god bless you tom
 

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