Pan Am New Aircraft or Preowned

mark porter · #1 06-15-2002, 02:37 PM

Many debate over using brand new aircraft to start a new carrier or preowned aircraft. I tend to agree with the Pan Am and it's beliefe that preowned are the best way to go. While new aircraft require alot less maintenence and are much more fuel efficient they are however much more COSTLY To purchase, for the purchase price of a new 767-400ER or 777ER we are talking about $ 149 to $169 million in bank loans, even at a very good loan rate the airline is now heavily in debt to the banks. As we can plainly see today, airlnes owe way to much in bank loans! So while preowned aircraft require much more maintenence and consume much more petrol they are a much better investment for a start-up carrier. Pan Am has been able to a mass a fleet of 22 727-200Adv aircraft at a average cost of $ 1 to 4 million per aircraft or shall we say less than ONE NEW Boeing 757-200ER the aircraft most likely to suceed Pan Am's 727-200Adv fleet of aircraft in the very near future. And while Pan Am will probably aquire either the DC-10 or the L1011 as their first widebody aircraft please remember that these can be obtained for arround $ 7-10 million VRS the sticker price of $ 149-$169 for the 767-400ER there is no way you can spend$ 139 million in extra petrol costs or extra flight attendents costs or extra maintence costs etc.And while Pan Am modernizes it's widebody fleet to most probably to the 767 to keep it within the 757/767 family of aircraft the will have the option of using the L1011 or DC10 as CHARTER or to implement them into their CARGO division!

GRS · #2 06-15-2002, 03:21 PM

You are right that old aircrafts you can buy it cheap. But, what is your cost of having an unreliable service? You are factoring passenger value, crew costs, aircraft lost time, etc. And you can also say that airlines are in debt because of buying new airlines. But airlines that went with old aircrafts are in much worst position or even bankrupt. If not, ask Tower Air, TWA (their economic problem started long before buying new aircrafts, when they use to have the old airplanes with unreliable service), Chile Inter, AOM, and all startups that have bought old aircraft, look where they have gone.

Now, lets look at history. Continental, was the worst airline 10 years ago, old aircrafts, bad service (if you factor in delays, baggage problems, etc), went bankrupt TWICE. They did the turnaround, bought new airplanes and they are succesful. JetBlue, the low cost startup, bought all the airplanes brand new, service and reliability are in top of the industry and passengers rewarded the airline with their loyalty. Where are they today? Top Airline in the Industry.

Valuejet, What happened to them? How many incidents did they have before their accident? Air Tran bought it and look, 50 new 717's and they are profitable. I'm a client who is not going to fly Pan Am with L1011's. Sorry, I have worked at airport operations and I have seen those aircrafts, flying without APU, engines totally damage, lots and lots of problems and have seen many flights cancelled with that aircraft. You can compute how much is going to cost an airline having 300 passengers stranded for a night. Or you can buy a new airplane or a low cycle one, and whatever you are going to save with the reliability issue you can applied it as a principal to your loan. At the end, customer satisfaction, paid aircraft and lots of profits. :-)

mark porter · #3 06-15-2002, 04:39 PM

The 727-200Adv is the work horse of the jets age just as the DC3 was in the prop age and still is. Pan Am has large maintenence facilities in Portsmouth, Orlando/Sanford as well as San Juan Puerto Rico and is building one in Santo Domingo for maintence on their 727-200Adv fleet of aircraft. As for the L1011 history has shown that this is one very well disigned aircraft that is very reliable. Sure it requires alot of maintence but it has stood many airlines very well such as Delta, ATA, United, Saudian Aribian Airlines etc while most of these airlines with the exception of ATA and Air Transt have retired their L1011's all the carriers have had nothing but good to say about the aircraft. Recently I have found 12 L1011-200's with fewer that 42,000 hrs of usage not bad. I still argue that these are a much better investment than a fleet of brand new Aircraft and a large debt in Bank loans.

mark porter · #4 06-15-2002, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark porter
The 727-200Adv is the work horse of the jets age just as the DC3 was in the prop age and still is. Pan Am has large maintenence facilities in Portsmouth, Orlando/Sanford as well as San Juan Puerto Rico and is building one in Santo Domingo for maintence on their 727-200Adv fleet of aircraft. As for the L1011 history has shown that this is one very well disigned aircraft that is very reliable. Sure it requires alot of maintence but it has stood many airlines very well such as Delta, ATA, United, Saudian Aribian Airlines etc while most of these airlines with the exception of ATA and Air Transt have retired their L1011's all the carriers have had nothing but good to say about the aircraft. Recently I have found 12 L1011-200's with fewer that 42,000 hrs of usage not bad. I still argue that these are a much better investment than a fleet of brand new Aircraft and a large debt in Bank loans.

GRS · #5 06-15-2002, 10:37 PM

It is of my opinion that the 737 is the work horse. It's about 30 years old and airline are still buying it. Contrary to the 727, the 737 started on the 100 series and we are up to the 900. This aircraft has proven to be the workhorse and best selling aircraft for Boeing and the Airlines. And lets not even go to the performance part of the aircraft. Southwest for example, moving from the -100's and -200's to the NG's series and they are very very profitable. The cost of the L'1011's are running very high right now. They are one of the most expensive aircraft to maintain right now. Check the books and you will find out. I'll have some costs for you on Monday.

Latino2002 · #6 06-16-2002, 02:34 AM

Iagree with GRs that the next generation B737-800/900 are a work horse in the industry. This A/C burn less fuel .

L10-11 it was a great airplane, but just go to victoriaville in CA and u will see a lot of this aircraft in the cementery, delta took last one in 2001. the l10-11 was part of our Delta family since 1973 to 2001.

also Crj's is a excellent aircraft. 40/50 and 70 seats aircraft.

Criss Colon · #7 06-16-2002, 12:27 PM

...we will see "PanAm" take the same "Flight Path" it has taken in the past!Then I will say;"I told you so"! "Stanley" and PanAm,s newest "CheerLeader",MARK,will then be much less "visible"on DR1!I Fly US AIR,cause I get a "Buddy Pass"from a friend.When I "PAY" I always fly American.Lots of planes,lots of routes,lots of reliability!CRISCO

Latino2002 · #8 06-16-2002, 04:27 PM

well American now is the bigger us airline, but also the no.1 in h aving accident.

dc-10~l1011~727 · #9 06-23-2005, 06:18 PM

The price does matter. these aircraft may be old but they are still useful for work and i ncourage panam to get these aircraft and i am sure that mojave will be able to suit panams requests and i think that they shouldn't follow united's example and get rid of them.

also i think that every one who likes dc-10's l1011's 727's and any of the aircraft from mojave should be priased for their support!!!!

WELL DONE!!!!!!!!!

rellosk · #10 06-23-2005, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Criss Colon

...we will see "PanAm" take the same "Flight Path" it has taken in the past!Then I will say;"I told you so"! "Stanley" and PanAm,s newest "CheerLeader",MARK,will then be much less "visible"on DR1!I Fly US AIR,cause I get a "Buddy Pass"from a friend.When I "PAY" I always fly American.Lots of planes,lots of routes,lots of reliability!CRISCO

Miracles, three years later and it seems like they are still in business. And they actually fly to SDQ and PJU, although it make take zillions of connections to get there.

http://flypanam.com/dest.html

Thanks to dc-10~l1011~727 for reviving an old thread.