Why do most Dominicans blindly prefer Hillary over Obama?

[Mr. Lu]

Chip, excluding Lilis, who are other great "dark" leaders? Don't include "Mestizo or Mulatto" leaders, just "dark" leaders. And exclude Trujillo as he wasn't nor did he recognize himslef as dark.

And the concept of Pena is relevant. Did you ever read "La Isla Al Reves," by Balaguer? Take a glance at that and then come back to me....And finally on the Pena topic, he was the leader of the masses in the DR. A PRD icon leader of the masses who had all but secured the Presidency until it was taken from him. Because of his skin color. So the masses wanted him and the status quo didn't.

As for your claims on the reasons Dominicans have problems with "bad hair and dark skin" has only so little to do with Haiti, and more to do with historical developments. As a product of that history, Haiti now faces the repudiation of those values by Dominicans who are so inclined to do so...meaning Haiti is a recipient of a racial mindset developed hundreds of years before the Republic of Haiti was even formed.

Finally, your arrogance towards the subject is disappointing. So you've been here two years and you can speak on the DR's racial politics as if you were an expert? There are men and women who have been here their whole lives and can't begin to fully describe the racial issues in this country and you can do so in a few posts...after a few years of living here? The issues are much bigger than you. Just because you don't see the problem (i.e disagreement with mixed marriages) doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because you don't see Leonel Fernanez steal millions, doesn't mean he hasn't done it.

I will agree with you on this, we can't and shouldn't generalize and we shouldn't turn the minority into the majority, but take a step back and realize that the problems with race are far more reaching than your time here in the DR.

And now back to our regularly scheduled conversation about Barack and Hilary.... :-)

[Mr. Lu]

First off, Canada is awesome...

Originally Posted by Fiesta Mama

My point is that most Dominicans with rights to vote in the U.S. do not even have grasp of the issues and are prejudiced against a black leader despite the black majority in the DR.

and


We must also remember that a majority of Dominicans voting in the U.S . election are uneducated in the issues that face the country and vote blindly by popularity in their communities as they do in the DR.

Fiesta Mama...check your history. Pena Gomez was the man to beat. He was a leader of the masses here. He would have been the DR's first black president and even in death he is still revered as the "last great Dominican politician." Even opponents recognize Pena's character and the race card was played as a political chess tool. In a "racist" nation a black man was to be president. It just adds to the paradoxes and ironies about the racial and political system in the DR.

And your assumption and generalization of the education level of Dominicans on the issues is not necessary. There is a difference between being educated and having an education. You can have an education and still be uneducated. I can explain more later but I'm tired...

I would venture to say that Dominicans could be educated on the issues, but how do we know? I just say let's be cautious with broad generalizations.

[gypsytan]

As a Hispanic American, and a woman, guess what? I'd vote for Obama. Pardon my intrusion but having lived in the US for many, many years, I had been widely descriminated against by black Americans (mostly black women) and never understood why. There's a lot of black gangs against Hispanic gangs problems going on around the country, especially in the Los Angeles and DC area.

If you ask me, I'd like to know from those stats of Hispanics overwhelming voting for Hillary, what their educational level is. My guess is that they're not the college educated crowd type. Look at the stats in Louisiana; an overwhelming majority of college educated blacks and white Americans voted for Obama, not Mrs. Clinton.

[Fiesta Mama]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lu

First off, Canada is awesome...

Fiesta Mama...check your history. Pena Gomez was the man to beat. He was a leader of the masses here. He would have been the DR's first black president and even in death he is still revered as the "last great Dominican politician." Even opponents recognize Pena's character and the race card was played as a political chess tool. In a "racist" nation a black man was to be president. It just adds to the paradoxes and ironies about the racial and political system in the DR.

And your assumption and generalization of the education level of Dominicans on the issues is not necessary. There is a difference between being educated and having an education. You can have an education and still be uneducated. I can explain more later but I'm tired...

I would venture to say that Dominicans could be educated on the issues, but how do we know? I just say let's be cautious with broad generalizations.

Mr. Lu... with respect, I am referring to the current presidential elections (or candidate elections) in the U.S., not past DR presidential elections. I am fully aware of the political history of the DR BUT this has little influence or relevancy in the current U.S. elections given that a large percentage (THE MAJORITY) of the eligible Dominican electoral base unfortunately fits the category I described. I have studied this issue (race relations/electoral base in length at university) and in current politics and do not speak without fact base.

[bob saunders]

I submit that most American Black Democrats are voting for Obama because of his colour more than his policies. I've listened to speeches by all the leading Democrats and Republicans and in my Opinion Obama lost the debate and has yet to say anything concrete that would get Latinos to vote for him. As for Pedro Gomez-Drugs PRD Come TOTOS.

[Chip]

Chip, excluding Lilis, who are other great "dark" leaders? Don't include "Mestizo or Mulatto" leaders, just "dark" leaders. And exclude Trujillo as he wasn't nor did he recognize himslef as dark.

No offense, but who made you king as far as comparisions go???? I personally did this to get away from more racial derived terms.

And the concept of Pena is relevant. Did you ever read "La Isla Al Reves," by Balaguer? Take a glance at that and then come back to me....And finally on the Pena topic, he was the leader of the masses in the DR. A PRD icon leader of the masses who had all but secured the Presidency until it was taken from him. Because of his skin color. So the masses wanted him and the status quo didn't.

Study history to try to understand the Domincan aversion with all things Haitian. Will it ever change, who knows.

As for your claims on the reasons Dominicans have problems with "bad hair and dark skin" has only so little to do with Haiti, and more to do with historical developments. As a product of that history, Haiti now faces the repudiation of those values by Dominicans who are so inclined to do so...meaning Haiti is a recipient of a racial mindset developed hundreds of years before the Republic of Haiti was even formed.

I disagree, sorry.

Finally, your arrogance towards the subject is disappointing. So you've been here two years and you can speak on the DR's racial politics as if you were an expert? There are men and women who have been here their whole lives and can't begin to fully describe the racial issues in this country and you can do so in a few posts...after a few years of living here? The issues are much bigger than you. Just because you don't see the problem (i.e disagreement with mixed marriages) doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because you don't see Leonel Fernanez steal millions, doesn't mean he hasn't done it.

What is your experience, if I may ask? Also, please don't dimish my personal experiances just becasue it doesn't conform to your version of reality. My wife is black and I am white and we have lived in the US and now am here - there is no comparisions, period.

I will agree with you on this, we can't and shouldn't generalize and we shouldn't turn the minority into the majority, but take a step back and realize that the problems with race are far more reaching than your time here in the DR.

I only agree racism is bad, the rest is from your point of view, and I say have at it, only that it has nothing to do with the reality of the majority of Domincans here in Santiago.

[Sholly24]

Originally Posted by Chip

The fact is the racial issues here in the DR are far superior to those in the US. ........

This topic has been discussed numerous times but in a nutshell, the aversion Dominicans have for dark skin and bad hair, etc stems from their volatile pasty with the Haitians, which is not anything like what is seen in the States, sorry. We have countless, countless mixed marriages here in Cibao and nobody bats an eye. In the States in most areas it is still a big issue.

You guys want to keep hacking away at racism here but the fact is it is practiced by a minority, not a majority. ...........

You cannot judge a country in it's present position without looking at it's past and where it is coming from. In america, the race relations here is a fall out from things like slavery, the civil war, the civil rights movement , supremacy and militant groups,economics and values that were inherited over hundreds of years etc while in the DR, the journey/experience has been different so things are currently being played out differently. To judge these 2 societies without looking at where each of them is coming from will give a distorted picture.

Over here in the US, mixed marriages are not too common so it is normal for people to bat an eye when they see something that is not common but it has less to do with racism. We have to look at the racial mix of these 2 countries to put things in better perspective. How many dominican white folks are married to jet black haitians or jet black dominicans?. If it is very few, do you know why?. Why the preference for the lighter skin and curly hair?. Oh, so perhaps I got you thinking now?. Please pay more attention to your environment so that you do not get blind-sided .

I knew all along that your observation/opinion on racism in the US is based on the fact that you married a black person but that is understandable but it is limited. My question to you is how many black women have you ever dated in america before meeting your wife?. How many black friends do you have in america at the moment that you are really close friends with, visit them at home etc before you met your wife?. What have you ever done to go out of your way and help a black cause before you met your wife?. I am asking all these because it would have helped you to see certain things much more closely and you might realise that america is just a group of different nations each living amicably under one roof but most choosing to see things differently because most people stick to their own and to themselves pretty much.

There is more to racism or prejudice than just batting an eye.

Sholly

[Mr. Lu]

Fiesta Mama all I'm saying is that you shouldn't discount the importance of past issues with their relevance to the present, even in a discussion like this. The fact that many Dominicans revered Pena Gomez, who was a dark skinned man, can disprove a lot of the stereotyping of Dominican racial dichotomy and adds another layer to this conversation about politics and race in the US. What happens here, in the DR, does affect what happens with the community in US. To a degree, we can say that if they voted for a dark skinned man in the DR they could do so in the US. That's all I'm saying.

As for Chip: Not everything in the DR has to do with Haiti. Important, yes, but not the foundations of all social and racial problems. Race in the DR comes from developments in the Spanish system. This goes back to 1492, almost 300 years before Haiti became a nation. It's a typical closed minded notion to refer everything back to Haiti. Mind you Haiti has been used as a political tool since the days of Juan Pablo Duarte. And is still being used as a political tool today. The scope is larger than that...much larger.

As for experience with race and racial issues. I've had plenty, though i'll spare the board of any sob stories. But that's my point, just because I have had an experience or two doest mean I can speak on a nation's problems, because the issues go far beyond what I have experienced or how I have interpreted things. And it goes for you too. Just because your wife is "black" you are now the DR's social/racial psychologist? Do you not see the fault in that? So you live in Santiago where things are different and now you can speak on all of the DR? And as for your "black" wife. Is she a dark skinned Dominican or is she a black American? Because those are two very different things...

[Chip]

Originally Posted by Sholly24

You cannot judge a country in it's present position without looking at it's past and where it is coming from. In america, the race relations here is a fall out from things like slavery, the civil war, the civil rights movement , supremacy and militant groups,economics and values that were inherited over hundreds of years etc while in the DR, the journey/experience has been different so things are currently being played out differently. To judge these 2 societies without looking at where each of them is coming from will give a distorted picture.

Over here in the US, mixed marriages are not too common so it is normal for people to bat an eye when they see something that is not common but it has less to do with racism. We have to look at the racial mix of these 2 countries to put things in better perspective. How many dominican white folks are married to jet black haitians or jet black dominicans?. If it is very few, do you know why?. Why the preference for the lighter skin and curly hair?. Oh, so perhaps I got you thinking now?. Please pay more attention to your environment so that you do not get blind-sided .

I knew all along that your observation/opinion on racism in the US is based on the fact that you married a black person but that is understandable but it is limited. My question to you is how many black women have you ever dated in america before meeting your wife?. How many black friends do you have in america at the moment that you are really close friends with, visit them at home etc before you met your wife?. What have you ever done to go out of your way and help a black cause before you met your wife?. I am asking all these because it would have helped you to see certain things much more closely and you might realise that america is just a group of different nations each living amicably under one roof but most choosing to see things differently because most people stick to their own and to themselves pretty much.

There is more to racism or prejudice than just batting an eye.

Sholly

IMHO this discourse is irrelevant and unimpressive. The issues may be complicated to you but not to me, sorry.

A word of advice, quit comparing what we have here in the DR to the American experience, if you don't you can never understand.

[Chip]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lu

Fiesta Mama all I'm saying is that you shouldn't discount the importance of past issues with their relevance to the present, even in a discussion like this. The fact that many Dominicans revered Pena Gomez, who was a dark skinned man, can disprove a lot of the stereotyping of Dominican racial dichotomy and adds another layer to this conversation about politics and race in the US. What happens here, in the DR, does affect what happens with the community in US. To a degree, we can say that if they voted for a dark skinned man in the DR they could do so in the US. That's all I'm saying.

As for Chip: Not everything in the DR has to do with Haiti. Important, yes, but not the foundations of all social and racial problems. Race in the DR comes from developments in the Spanish system. This goes back to 1492, almost 300 years before Haiti became a nation. It's a typical closed minded notion to refer everything back to Haiti. Mind you Haiti has been used as a political tool since the days of Juan Pablo Duarte. And is still being used as a political tool today. The scope is larger than that...much larger.

As for experience with race and racial issues. I've had plenty, though i'll spare the board of any sob stories. But that's my point, just because I have had an experience or two doest mean I can speak on a nation's problems, because the issues go far beyond what I have experienced or how I have interpreted things. And it goes for you too. Just because your wife is "black" you are now the DR's social/racial psychologist? Do you not see the fault in that? So you live in Santiago where things are different and now you can speak on all of the DR? And as for your "black" wife. Is she a dark skinned Dominican or is she a black American? Because those are two very different things...

Mr. Lu I'm afraid that it is apparent that your constant desire to classify people demonstrates a real prejudiced opinion on this matter and at this point I see that I can not convince you otherwise. Therefore, we will have to agree to disagree and I do so unreservedly vehemently.