Social Conditioning of Dominicans through History?? What Do You Think??

[DOMINICANUSA]

The relevence is that this threat was started by a Black American using his American experience to judge Dominican behavior/society. I 've never lived in Brazil, I however do know a number of Brazilians and I can read as well as the next person. I agree that this thread has reached it's limit.

I've never lived in Brazil either, but Newark,NJ has one of the largest Brazilian populations in the US and based strictly on my personal experience with them, I don't notice any difference in color/racial attitudes with people of their own nationality and different color/ancestry.
The only curiousity I noticed is that the ones I knew (from Para and Minas Gerais) may have a broader definition of 'white' than DR. But I still wouldn't generalize the entire country based on those individuals.

Now regarding the whole trendy nightclub scene, I have no personal experience except via others who have gone, here's my summary:

-Connections and socioeconomic class seem to be the common denomitor as to who gets in or not.

-I can google pics of crowds in these clubs, and I have seen people of obvious African ancestry.

-The sure way not to get in is looking like the stereotypical DomincanYork or a chopo. My barber is half-Italians and looks fully European but very stereotypical 'chopo' and was not let in to one of them.

This being said, I still wouldn't come to a definitive conclusion or generalize the entire country or its people based on what may or may not have been a factor in not letting some people in.
For example, there was an African American night club that got into trouble for having 'light skinned' nights and not letting in darker skinned people. This does not reflect the US or African Americans in general.

[caribNY]

Bingo. In this case we merely substitute a "race" based society for a "color" based society. For those thinking the DR is some "we are the world color is never an issue fantasy land" is either completely blind or living underground. The constant comparison to the US gets old. The US has a pretty racist history and past....one of the worst in the western hemisphere.

I have lived in both Brazil and the DR and despite there being pockets of racism in Brazil, as far as "color not being an issue"......Brazil is ahead by leaps and bounds. There is no joking of skin color, no warnings to stay out of the sun, no obsession with hair texture or skin tone. Dominicans don't make these type of comments to white gringos. They make it to other Dominicans, or gasp gringos they mistakenly believe are Dominican....or at least the product of Dominican parents.

If you want an experiment on colorism, the next time you are in Santiago or Santo Domingo (Lincoln/Churchill) take your black friends eerr "moreno" to the poshest clubs. Let me know if they get in without a hitch or without paying more than there counterparts, or without the infamous "private party". Yes, yes, its the way they're dressed. It always is. The good news is most dark-skinned Dominicans are too poor to parlay with their wealthier and lighter counterparts in the cities. They stick to their barrios, so they have the luxury of never experiencing the darker side of the DR's seemingly harmonic racial paradise!

It's preposterous to believe that a society can be "color-blind". People will always be aware of color, just like they are aware of someone being fat or skinny, short or tall.

DominicanUSA curious as to what you think about the above? Exxtol seems to live in the DR.

Also Ginetta Candelario wrote a book on this issue...Black Behind the Ears. What do you think of it?

[Major448]

As a Domincian personally familiar with both the USA and Dominican POV (I have lived and studied in both countries), as well as being raised among African Americans, I have a question for the non-Dominicans here:

-In your opinion, why is it that LatinAmerican countries which have a substantial amount of Afrodescendants get so much attention from African Americans? I've been a member of Domincian, Hispanic and Anthropoloby boards and this topic gets brought up mostly by African Americans. I can even link you to an international site that is based on archetictual themes, and guess who makes threads/posts on this topic? Even African posters express curiousity as to why the focus on racism/ slavery, blackness by African Americans.

-Why isn't the reverse true? In other words, Brazilians, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, etc. so focused on African American history, racism, colorism and one droppism?

-I've yet to see the same interest on the racism/colorism of African Americans in Liberia towards native Africans. Now there is a truly interested story.

I have nothing personal against African Americans, but it does call my attention on what I perceive as a hypocritical double standard on these issues.

Besides the fact that I am the one who mentioned linking to Liberia's history ... I think that the same thing that you accuse American blacks of doing is what you seem to be doing. I made a case that any issues in the DR may not be related to race.

IF YOU READ MY POSTS IN THIS THREAD, and saw where I mentioned not being allowed to vote in 2008, you might understand why WE have more than a passing interest in racial issues. You lived in the US?? Exactly the same argument about an outsider not quite understanding could be made. I can live in the DR, with a DR family and still not quite understand things.

We are no different than you. Just different experiences and history. It conditions all of us to be who we are. It is up to us to manage that conditioning.

[DOMINICANUSA]

Dominican USA

Interesting viewpoints ... fascinating, really! And isn't it amazing how all of those African Americans think? Only one of those African Americans would do/say those things. How dare they ... who do they think they are! Good thing you and I are just "individuals"?

I think I made a precise distinction of who 'they' are (mostly internet race warriors who happen to be mostly African Americans) and not generalized the entire African American population.
Let's not be PC about this, I think anyone who has spent some time on forums will note which group seems to focus on those topics.

Who do you think focuses on 'Ancient Egyptians were black' topics? Egyptians or African American posters? Acknowledging this doesn't mean I apply this to say, real life African American friends of mine who would look at me in puzzlement if I brought this up.

[Major448]

... Newark,NJ ...
.

My hometown. Haven't lived there in many years, and would not now. Still have family in that area.

But is this the US (representative) that you are familiar with?

[DOMINICANUSA]

DominicanUSA curious as to what you think about the above? Exxtol seems to live in the DR.

Also Ginetta Candelario wrote a book on this issue...Black Behind the Ears. What do you think of it?

I have not read Ginetta Candelarios book yet, but my post #181 has my thoughts on what Exxtol posted.

[Major448]

DominicanUSA ... you raise good points and i think I understand where you're coming from. I just don't know if we want to do African American history on this post. But if you've read my comments in this thread, you know I would be up to it.

[Major448]

I've yet to see the same interest on the racism/colorism of African Americans in Liberia towards native Africans. Now there is a truly interested story.

Most people don't pay attention to history, and aren't even aware of things past. So, how could they make decisions or even understand about today and tomorrow ....

Of course I COULD also say that it was not about race. It was about colonizing and about power.

[DOMINICANUSA]

I think that the same thing that you accuse American blacks of doing is what you seem to be doing.

What exactly am I doing to American blacks? I am in no way denigrating, insulting, mocking or caricutirizing their country, history or culture. It was a simple straightforward question and quite valid. Its not like I made up a bunch of lies or made some vieled insults.

you might understand why WE have more than a passing interest in racial issues.

I also have had a lifelong interest in historical, cultural and Anthropology related topics. I am not personally familiar with what your stance is since I don't post here much. I do however see the same recurring theme over and over again, and rarely is it clinical in nature and driven by scholarly initerest, hence my stance on the topic.

The impression I get is that posters who come from countries or ethnic groups which developed a 'black' ethnoracial/political identity (hence it being mostly African Americans and/or Anglo-influenced Afrocentrics) tend to see these topics thru those lens and approach it in a very imperialistic arrogant manner. Just look at the first post in this thread, chock full of the usual anti-Domincian bs.
I personally do know plenty of African Americans who are very familiar with Caribbean Latino culture and self-identity and approach this topic in the aforesaid manner. Its that fringe group that sets the tone and is responsible for making more and more DomincanYorks have a negative view of 'Afrocentrism'.

[caribNY]

I have not read Ginetta Candelarios book yet, but my post #181 has my thoughts on what Exxtol posted.

Yes I saw your post after I asked you the question. Part of the problem might be that US based Dominicans, AAs and nonHispanic Caribbean people might be unaware of the more conservative attitudes to dress and appearance in the DR, i.e. no dreads or braids or casual afrocentric attire in high end clubs. Like white tourists to the nonHispanic caribbean who think that they can walk around town as if they are on a beach and then are refused entry to stores.

I guess Exxtol might debate with you his thoughts if he cares to.

I actually borrowed that book by Ms Candelario. Will summarize her thoughts when I have gotten sufficiently far in to intelligently comment. She is Dominican and seems to have enough expertise on Dominican attitudes on color/race, clearly impacted by having lived outside of the DR. Its always interesting to hear what folks from a country who have spent sometime OUTSIDE it think when they return.