US training of Haitian Rebels in Dominican Republic

[ltsnyder]

Democracy Now (BroadBand 256k) Report on Haitian Rebel Training by US in DR

Democracy Now (Dialup 128k) Report on Haitian Rebel Training by US in DR

Democracy Now (Listen RealPlayer) Report on Haitian Rebel Training by US in DR

I know there are people who have kneejerk reaction to news like this, so this belongs in the debate section. I'd also be interested in any confirming information regarding this. Basicly the claim is as follows:

The Speaker in the interview is:

Dr. Luis Barrios, professor of criminal justice at John Jay College in New York City. He is also a prominent community leader in New York's Puerto Rican and Dominican communities as well as a priest in the Episcopal Church. He recently returned from the Dominican Republic.

As Colin Powell returns from his one-day visit to Haiti, we speak with criminal justice professor Dr. Luis Barrios about his trip to the Dominican Republic where he says lawyers, journalists, and Dominican soldiers all claim 200 U.S. Special Forces were in the country to train the so-called Haitian rebel forces before going into Haiti to depose Aristide.

no copyrights violated here.

I find it hard to believe that a Dominican from New York could stumble upon the truth that no one else has found. He says that training took place in San Sidron , San Cristobal and Harmon (I'm sure I just mangled a towns name) among others.

P.S. Please don't delete this, I had many other post and seen entire threads with news posts wiped out, one about PsyOps during the Coup and about weapons from DR, now a well discussed issue. But it's disappointing when an issue is not discussed but rather eviserated from the board, people need an open discussion, even if some one talking is "full of it". I know this is a private board, but I beleive this kind of discussion adds to the value of the board.

-Lee

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Lee,

Check you links. The interviews seem to be about the 9-11 commission.

But, otherwise, here is what has been reported:

1. Guy Philippe, the former Police Chief and coup leader, crossed the border with a group of uniformed and well armed comandos - perhaps killing two Dominican soldiers along the way.

2. Philippe has admitted that his group trained in the Dominican Republic. He also admitted that he received US military training in Ecuador - from where he arrived in the Dominican Republic. So, the only question is, did he receive US military training in the Dominican Republic?

3. Well, if he wanted US military training for his group, by chance there were 300 US Special Forces on the border to help him.

4. As the "Bush is Great" clique on this board has reminded us many times, nobody has said that US soldiers on the border were training the Haitian rebels on the same border. Apparently, they were just having a clambake together. (Edited to add that Dr. Barrios just reported that such training did actually occur).

5. The Democratic Convergence opposition group in Haiti told the Washington Post back in 2002 that they were receiving assistance from the International Republic Institute (IRI), a shadow organization for the USAIA (and funded by it) dominated by US Republican Party stalwarts like Brent Scowcroft and Jean Kirkpatrick. They also mentioned that, if their attempts to remove Aristide were not successful, then the ex-Haitian soldiers on the Dominican side of the border should be trained to take the country by force.

6. The IRI, on its website, carefully notes that it has not directly trained any former Haitian military - but says nothing about former Haitian police or about whether it funds such training in general.

7. Aristide has been stating since at least 2002 that the IRI was funding his opposition.

I suspect that even more will come out over time. After all, some in Philippe's group may become disaffected over time and, if they live long enough, may begin to cough up more specific facts.

We live in an age of "institutes", "foundations" and "security contractors" - all with budgets that appear nowhere to be evaluated. Perhaps we should call them "US irregulars". Under these circumstances, evidence like that listed above is pretty strong.

[ltsnyder]

Links corrected.

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Originally Posted by ltsnyder

He says that training took place in San Sidron , San Cristobal and Harmon (I'm sure I just mangled a towns name) among others.

San Isidro, San Cristobal and Dajabon were cited as training locations. According to Dr. Barros, the Haitians would go to a hotel in Santo Domingo for additional training from the IRI and "payment". Also, Dr. Barrios says he is Puerto Rican, not Dominican.

[CES]

Originally Posted by ltsnyder

- snip -

P.S. Please don't delete this, I had many other post and seen entire threads with news posts wiped out, one about PsyOps during the Coup and about weapons from DR, now a well discussed issue. But it's disappointing when an issue is not discussed but rather eviserated from the board, people need an open discussion, even if some one talking is "full of it". I know this is a private board, but I beleive this kind of discussion adds to the value of the board.

-Lee

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . CES

[Tony C]

Proof please!
Not some silly rantings from a radical priest.

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Ah, but what the "radical priest" says is only a slight extension of what has already been reported in the Miami Herald, the Washington Post and ZNet. Unless you believe those sources to also all be "radical" left, then you accept the following:

Fact: Philippe and his group trained under US auspicies in Ecuador.

Fact: Philippe states that he and his group also trained on the DR side of the border.

Fact: There were hundreds of US Special Forces on the same border.

Fact: The IRI admits involvement with and funding of the Haitian opposition.

The only thing that that "radical priest" (can't help but notice, Tony, that anyone who tries to enlighten you in any way is always a "radical", "commie", "liberal" or some other cheap Reagan-era label) had to add were details about places in the DR where the training took place, the supply of arms, and the funding mechanism for rebels within the DR. Frankly, I'm not sure about whether large numbers of M-16s sent to the DR military wound up in the hands of Haitians rebels, but I also think that it hardly matters.

[Tony C]

Originally Posted by Porfio_Rubirosa

Fact: Philippe and his group trained under US auspicies in Ecuador...

Until there is hard evidence, Pictures, Ducuments ect this is not a fact.

Originally Posted by Porfio_Rubirosa

Fact: Philippe states that he and his group also trained on the DR side of the border...

On man makes a statement and it is true? Ever think that he is making that statement for Political reasons to legitimize his position? Again, Non-Fact

Originally Posted by Porfio_Rubirosa

Fact: There were hundreds of US Special Forces on the same border..

So?

Originally Posted by Porfio_Rubirosa

Fact: The IRI admits involvement with and funding of the Haitian opposition..

you left out one word(How convientient) "Political" There is no proof that the US funded the rebels Directly or even indirectly.

Originally Posted by Porfio_Rubirosa

The only thing that that "radical priest" (can't help but notice, Tony, that anyone who tries to enlighten you in any way is always a "radical", "commie", "liberal" or some other cheap Reagan-era label) had to add were details about places in the DR where the training took place, the supply of arms, and the funding mechanism for rebels within the DR. Frankly, I'm not sure about whether large numbers of M-16s sent to the DR military wound up in the hands of Haitians rebels, but I also think that it hardly matters.

For me any person who is working for an organized Religion cannot be trusted. Either from the Left or the Right.

You are not sure if the M-16's ever made it into Haitian rebel hands because it didn't happen. There is no evidence. Except for 2 photos of a single weapon in a Haitian Rebel's hand and that was probably bought over the counter in Miami. Ever other piece of video or photo shows Haitian Rebels holding old Stock-pile weapons or non-US weapons.

Again I want PROOF!!!!
Show me Stock-piles of US Weapons and their Serial Numbers showing me where they Originated.
Show me US ducuments showing the US's Involvement. Checks Cashed going directly into the Rebels bank accounts.
Until then don't waste our time.

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Jeez, when did you graduate from the Iran/Contra school of damage control: "First thing, we deny everything".

All of the facts were taken from the Miami Herald, Washington Post and ZNet, and have not been denied by Washington. Washington only denies that it armed or trained the rebels while they were on the border - but says nothing about whether proxy "institutes" did the dirty work for them (even assuming you believe their denials).

Again, Tony admits that there were US special forces on the border, but would have you believing that Haitian rebels and US special forces were only having a clambake together.

Fact: Short of a full blown Congressional inquiry or indpendent commission with powers of subpoena, we cannot expect Tony's cancelled checks and gun serial numbers to materialize. The facts known, including the confession of a coup leader, might be enought to convict were this subject to a trial of fact. There have been plenty of instances where convictions are based on admissions against interest alone, particularly where material evidence has been intentionally withheld.

Fact: If there were photos, Tony would say that the photos prove nothing because they were doctored, cannot be positively identified, or any number of other standard denials taken from the Oliver North handbook.

Fact: Tony does not consider the spoken word of a coup leader (that he trained on the Dominican side of the border) to be important - though he apparently otherwise supports that same coup leader. That's an "F" for consistency, Tony. Also, couldn't help but notice how you couldn't any longer say that it wasn't a "fact".

Fact: Similarly, Tony now admits to US funding for the Haitians opposition, though qualifies that by saying that it was "political" support. Assuming that in Haiti there has ever been a difference between politics and armed gangs, what the heck was the US doing funding one Latin American political group over another anyway?!?!

I have a sneaking suspecion that Tony and the rest of the Bushees with interests in the Dominican Republic will get quite an awakening in May, 2004, when they look for Washington to provide moral guidance in the Dominican elections.

Originally Posted by Tony C

For me any person who is working for an organized Religion cannot be trusted.

Now that's practically unamerican. I'll condemn Bush's lack of good deeds, but not his faith. Shame on you.

[Tony C]

I have in no way show any support for the Rebel leader. In fact in an earlier post I had stated that he was as bad as Aristide if not worse. Phillipe was a pro-Aristed thug until a falling out. With the US's intervention he is now trying to show that he was working for the US. Why? Simple the US doesn't want him involved with the post-Aristide government.
I did support the removal of the Murderous Dictator Aristide. I am also supportive of the US efforts to insure that Phillipe holds no political position in the New Haitian Government.
I have viewed liiterally dozens of video Clips from various news sources of the Haitian rebels in action. Some from Anti-US sources. Not one has shown a weapon that could be linked to the US let alone the DR.
What gets me is that you use baseless evidence to attack the US and the DR yet you do not give the US credit for preventing what would have been a bloodbath.
Were you against the removal of Aristide? If so Why? Don't say he was elected Democratically because we all know that is false.
Are you against US Troops in Haiti preventing the thugs from Taking over?
Face Facts! The aftermath of the Haitian Rebellion was a Bush foriegn policy masterstpiece!