Article examining dominican identity

[Pib]

Originally Posted by wventura

I'm not implying that dominicans should choose one or the other. But why not both???

It just doenst happen.

It troubles me when the darkest, most african looking dominican is more proud of his/her white ancestry, and doesnt mention all of his other obvious ancestries.

And why does it trouble you? I may find it amuzing, or ignorant, but it doesn't trouble me in the least what people chose to identify themselves with. It amuses me just as much Americans who claim the ancestry of people who arrived hundreds of years ago in the States. Just amusing, not troubling.

[juancarlos]

wventura, what I said is that white Latin Americans don't identify themselves as being part of any Spanish "diaspora" and neither do black Latin Americans identify themselves as part of any African "diaspora". That is a concept developed in the US and embraced by many or some black Americans. I have said I am not that familiar with Dominicans. I would guess that the majority know they are a mixture of African, European and some native genes. If it is so obvious then there is no point in either admitting it or denying it, it's there for everyone to see. Maybe they just take it for granted as well. I have read that in the official DR census, when they used to record a person's race, there were four categories: White, Black, Mestizo(Mulatto) and Asian. And most of the population was classified as mulato. That means they recognized their dual- or triple if taino genes are included- ancestry. Mulatoes in the DR do tend to use the word "indio" to identify their color, like someone else previously stated here. That word is also applied to mulatoes who have straight hair and that type of coloring. However, almost anything in the DR is a mixture, from merengue to food to religious beliefs. That mixture is black, white and indian or European/Caucasian, African Negro and Native- a branch of the Mongoloid race. Not all the Caucasian heritage is Spanish, there is French, Lebanese/Syrian/Jewish(Semitic), Italian etc. In addition, the modern Mongoloid presence is represented by the Chinese communities which exist in major cities.

Because of all of these mixtures and the history of the country, you can say that there are no pure races in the DR, but that is also the situation in the world at large. I seriously doubt that black Dominicans don't know they are black, and I mean the ones who are obviouly of predominantly black African ancestry. Perhaps because they don't want to be mistaken for Haitians, they mention whatever Spanish ancestor they may have. What they are problably saying is that even thoug they are black, they are Dominican.

Now, in the same way that the most African looking Dominican blacks may have inherited some white genes from a remote white or mulato ancestor, the whitest of Dominicans- like the upper class folks- may also have inherited some black genes from some remote black or mulato ancestor. That is a reality which is not limited to the DR.

Now, even in Haiti, which is acknowledged as being the first black republic and the first country to become independent in the region and where African ancestry is not only accepted but proudly claimed, there are differences between the light skinned mulato elite and the majority of the population. Even in Haiti being "pretty" or upper class etc. is associated with whiteness.

It is also, perhaps, because of Haiti being so African in racial heritage, that Dominicans, in order to claim their own identy as a people separate from Haiti, put comparatively more emphasis on their Spanish heritage. Besides, culturally speaking as well, the DR is more Spanish than Haiti is French. Haiti is more African, in fact the most African country in the Americas, and Dominicans are well aware of it. Those facts may help to explain the attitudes you are complaining about on the part of Dominicans.

[Narcosis]

Originally Posted by wventura

YOU have got to be joking. Dominicans go on and on about how they are spanish. "Hispanidad", is the national ideology.

And dominicans have no problem identifiying as "white", but you can search the whole island and not find one person that would admit to being black.

Apples and oranges..Hispanidad has nothing to do with black or white.

There is "Hispanidad" in the Philippines, in Guniea Equatorial (100% black) etc.

As a side note this is not a "Dominican" phenomenon, a few years ago a Korean free zone operator told me about his first few weeks here in the DR.

Since most of his workers could not pronounce his name, they ignorantly started to call him Chino..Well he tried to put a stop to it but no one could understand what the big deal was, they told him "but you look just like a Chino", So the next day he started to call everyone Haitiano, of course everyone corrected him very quickly by pointing out they were Dominican not Haitian, to which he would respond..oh what's the big deal you look Haitian to me..So from that day on, no one made the mistake of calling him Chino again.

[NALs]

Then why are dominicans so desperate to claim "white"??? arent they more than just being white???

They are more than just being white, but you know how it is. Many wealthier Haitians are much more keen to consider themselves mulatto, even if they are 100% black. So, what is the deal here?

Bull****. "white" domninicans are mixed race as well, they are just lighter mulattos. 25% is rediculous, thats too insignificant, for somebody to have dark skin. That guy was dark because he had ALOT of afriacan ancestry from every side of his family.

Have you heard of predominant traits! Why some people have hair on their fingers and others don't? What about the widow's peak? The same thing applies here. This guy is 25% black, but his black genes were much stronger than his white genes when it came to skin color. The guy does have "European" nose, blue eyes, and "good" hair. Why are you judging this guy with a vengence? You have not even met him, just prejudging him.

Well this "embracing both sides", doesnt happen in the D.R that much. If asked of ones "antepasados", african ancestors are the LAST thing a dominican (regardless of color), will mention. They have to ADMIT to it. Its incredible to see dominicans that look like they are strait out of Africa, brag about their pure spanish great grandfather, but ignore the rest of their ancestry.

Haitians mention their French connection as the last thing (and sometimes they ignore it completely) and is anyone jumping around because of it? No. Why are you so upset about the Dominican way of things?

Bull****. You will not find many dominicans celebrating their african ancestry. They will go on and on about spanish ancestry, other european ancestry, and Taino (even though its practically non-existent), but african ancestry never seems to come up, even though AFRICAN ANCESTRY IS THE LARGEST COMPONENT IN THE D.R.

Um, listen to Perico Ripiao and with how much "gusto" they dance to it.
Watch Dominicans dream about Chicharrones con Tostones.
Watch them drewl over Casave.
Hear them talk about el Chi chi and asking for un chin of food, before they head to the can.

(1) You need to relax because nobody is fighting here, just discussing this.
(2) You need to accept Dominicans the way they are and stop trying to impose your belief system on to them.
(3) On the day when YOUR people act perfect, then you have all the right in world to tell Dominicans how to live. But until then, work on your own defects and let us Dominicans work on ours, without your imput.

Relax. The world is not ending, yet.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by juancarlos

It is also, perhaps, because of Haiti being so African in racial heritage, that Dominicans, in order to claim their own identy as a people separate from Haiti, put comparatively more emphasis on their Spanish heritage. Besides, culturally speaking as well, the DR is more Spanish than Haiti is French. Haiti is more African, in fact the most African country in the Americas, and Dominicans are well aware of it. Those facts may help to explain the attitudes you are complaining about on the part of Dominicans.

Juan Carlos, you hit the nail and you hit it hard.

That is the exact reason for why the western 1/3 of Hispaniola embraces Africa and ignores Europe and why the eastern 2/3 of Hispaniola embraces Europe and ignores Africa.

There is nothing more to it. The beautiful thing of this is that this island that is called Hispaniola is home to two beautiful and interesting cultures, probably some of the most authentic cultures in the Caribbean due to the heavy mixing and important interaction the island had during Colonial times. Let's face it, anybody that likes the DR must realize that Dominicans are the way they are because of how they have developed over the years, including how they see the world.

In many countries in the Caribbean blacks and whites don't mix well. Go to Martinique, St. Lucia, Grenada or where ever and the same scene unfolds. Blacks embrace their own culture and stay in their own bubble while whites do the same in their own separate bubble. You have the US which is a "two major cultures" country with the America of the Suburban Whites and the America of the InnerCity Blacks, both having their distict and harsh contrasting cultures as if they were two different countries.

In the DR there is no major distiction between blacks and whites and mulatto. The biggest divisions in the DR comes from wealth, but not skin colors. For some bizzare reason, the rest of the world is having a hard time swallowing that there is a country in this world where Skin color is not a dividing as wealth is. It's sad the world debates what Dominicans are. The ironic thing is that while the world spend their lives debating, Dominicans are not putting much mind to that and instead are dancing to Merengue (which is a mixture of African and European music) and they are eating La Bandera Dominicana and Chicharrones and they are talking their Spanish with a Taino and African word here and there. Aaah, it feels good to be Dominican.

Why can't the world just try to fix their own racial problems which from what I am seeing are causing more division among human populations than union.

[wventura]

Originally Posted by juancarlos

wventura, what I said is that white Latin Americans don't identify themselves as being part of any Spanish "diaspora" and neither do black Latin Americans identify themselves as part of any African "diaspora".

Absolutely untrue. Especially in the case of Dominicans. They consider themselves to be part of spain's "legacy" in the americas.

And black latin americans from other countries like Cuba, Colombia, Peru, Brazil ect, also consider themselves to be part of the african diaspora.

"diaspora" just means any scattering of people with common origin.

That is a concept developed in the US and embraced by many or some black Americans.

100% false. Black americans are not the only people that have pride in their ancestry.

That means they recognized their dual- or triple if taino genes are included- ancestry. Mulatoes in the DR do tend to use the word "indio" to identify their color, like someone else previously stated here. That word is also applied to mulatoes who have straight hair and that type of coloring.

The origin of the "indio" clasification is an attempt to negate african ancestry. There is no denying this. Its where it came from. Any many MANY dominicans today actually do think that they are indian, and they will tell you this.

I seriously doubt that black Dominicans don't know they are black, and I mean the ones who are obviouly of predominantly black African ancestry.

Then I guess you would be very suprised. Its a RARITY to find a dominican that will say that he/she is black. An Extreme Rarity.

Perhaps because they don't want to be mistaken for Haitians, they mention whatever Spanish ancestor they may have. What they are problably saying is that even thoug they are black, they are Dominican.

No. Not at all. They actually think they are not black. Dominicans say that "there are no black people in the D.R., only indios oscuros"

[wventura]

Originally Posted by Narcosis

Apples and oranges..Hispanidad has nothing to do with black or white.

What is apples and oranges??? IN the D.R spanish and "white" go hand and hand; one implies the other. The presidencies of Balaguer and Truijillo, are shaped upon this ideology.

There is "Hispanidad" in the Philippines, in Guniea Equatorial (100% black) etc.

If you mean spanish cultural pride, then there is close to none in the phillipines, and not much in Equatorial Guinea. (and equatorial guinea is NOT 100% black)

As a side note this is not a "Dominican" phenomenon, a few years ago a Korean free zone operator told me about his first few weeks here in the DR.

Since most of his workers could not pronounce his name, they ignorantly started to call him Chino..Well he tried to put a stop to it but no one could understand what the big deal was, they told him "but you look just like a Chino", So the next day he started to call everyone Haitiano, of course everyone corrected him very quickly by pointing out they were Dominican not Haitian, to which he would respond..oh what's the big deal you look Haitian to me..So from that day on, no one made the mistake of calling him Chino again.

nice story, but explain how its relavent to what we were discussing.

[wventura]

Originally Posted by Nal0whs

They are more than just being white, but you know how it is.

No i'm not sure what you mean. Before you were saying that its wrong for dominicans to be "black", because they are more than just black. But you wont say the same for "white" dominicans.

Many wealthier Haitians are much more keen to consider themselves mulatto, even if they are 100% black. So, what is the deal here?

????? why do you bring up haiti. What are you implying??

and anyway many of the wealthier haitians (if not most of the wealthy haitians), ARE mullato.

Haitians mention their French connection as the last thing (and sometimes they ignore it completely) and is anyone jumping around because of it? No. Why are you so upset about the Dominican way of things?

THe VAST majority of haitians dont have french ancestry, so they have no reason to identify with it. Those haitians that do have it, do identify with it.

THis is NOT the case with dominicans and African ancestry. The D.R has a predominance of african ancestry, and absolutely no pride for this.

Um, listen to Perico Ripiao and with how much "gusto" they dance to it.
Watch Dominicans dream about Chicharrones con Tostones.
Watch them drewl over Casave.
Hear them talk about el Chi chi and asking for un chin of food, before they head to the can.

Where is the argument here?? There is no rebuttal.

You just got finished explaining the importance of "embracing both sides". But dominicans (for the most part) do not do this. THere is no celebration or even recognition of african ancestry, in the D.R.

(1) You need to relax because nobody is fighting here, just discussing this.

I'm discussing.

(3) On the day when YOUR people act perfect, then you have all the right in world to tell Dominicans how to live. But until then, work on your own defects and let us Dominicans work on ours, without your imput.

Its funny that you assume that I am of no relation to the dominican republic. I'm an american of dominican descent (2nd generation), and concerned about why my home country has absolutely no pride in their ancestry.

[wventura]

Originally Posted by Pib

And why does it trouble you? I may find it amuzing, or ignorant, but it doesn't trouble me in the least what people chose to identify themselves with. It amuses me just as much Americans who claim the ancestry of people who arrived hundreds of years ago in the States. Just amusing, not troubling.

Why is it troubling????

What i have been gathering from all of your posts is that you admit to the D.R only identifying with european, and native(non-existent) ancestry, but find no problem with this.

If you go to any other country, it is not like this. Cuba is a great example. Cubans have a tremendous amount of pride of their african ancestry. You will never hear a Cuban show this type of denial that is typical of dominicans.
They have so much cultural pride, and are aware of their heritage.

Many other countries have the same (among their population of african descent); Peru, Colombia, and Brazil, are other good examples.

I have always wondered my home country, cant have the same type of pride, and awareness.

I find it extremely ironic that the blackest country in Latin america (D.R), would have the least amount of pride of its african ancestry. It simply doesnt exist there.

[ELin3pi2!]

there is no specific dominican race everyone knows that, me for example my grandmother on my mom's side is black and proud, and my grandfather is white and so my mom got her mixed complexity and so did i since my father is also mixed (black mom, mulato father), one thing that many people are unaware is that in the article they claim that 90% of the population is of black descent. I guess the person who wrote the article has never been to Bani, or el Cibao, well really I don't think she went out of the hotel area because everywhere you go there are black, whites and majority of mixed people. As a matter of fact trujillo himself (half Haitian) never claimed his ancestry and moreover he was so concerned about the increment of haitians in the country that he killed thousands of them. He never targetted black dominicans though. on a personal note, I'm not at all racist i am proud of my moreno family, we get along better with that side of the family. My grandfather was the only one who tried to keep the families together he used to take us to his sister's houses so we could play with their white children, and he did the same with my mom and her brothers. But only our black side is united, I don't even know how my white side of the family is doing, I know they are fine but some of them never make an attemp to get close to us. I think as everyone else knows that we are racists not only against haitians(not me I get along with them) but with dominicans as well.