Haitian workers in the DR, and the condition of Haiti . . . is it getting better?

[ltsnyder]

Just wanted general feedback about Haitians in the DR and the conditions of Haiti in general (trying to bar the obvious Jennine effect). Since the liberation of Haiti have things gotten better for Haitians? Or is there an even greater influx of poor Haitians into the DR? Any one have the pulse on this?
I imagine any one with Haitian house workers employed would know about the current conditions.

-Lee

[Robert]

As long as this thread retains a very strong DR slant, it stays.
Please keep on topic and I'll remind everyone again, this message board is not about Haiti, it's about the Dominican Republic. So keep your posts focused on the Dominican Republic.

[NALs]

Has the influx of Haitians into the DR ever lighten up? Um, no.

I guess they learned that its easier to come "on the low" rather than parading with bayonets like they did in past centuries.

It also has to do with the extremely relax attitude the DR government has towards this problem, a problem that will cost us in the long shot monetarily and loss in economic advancement. I'm saying that because most Haitians aggregate the problems in the DR, demanding the DR to take care of Dominican poor and Haitian poor, further straining whatever resources are available here.

The public hospitals are in shambles, but they probably would not have been if the Hospitals were to attend Dominicans. Nowadays, Haitians outnumber Dominicans in many hospital and by the time a Dominican makes it to the hospital, all the medicines have been used up and the beds are taken. Its not like if things will be perfect without the Haitian problem, but it would be alot better than before.

The school are now overcrowded. Schools have always been underfunded to begin with, the allowance of Haitians to attend Dominican schools just puts more unnecessary strains on the system and puts the Dominicans (for who the schools were built for to begin with) at a disadvantage with less spending per pupil.

The slums are expanding like water. In 2000, the census reported that 95% of all slum dwellers in the DR were Haitians. Now its probably up more and the slums have spread. This is unacceptable. All these Haitians living in hovels on the outskirts of SDQ. Its ridiculous. Again, its not that without the Haitians the slums would disappear, but they would be a lot smaller and not in places like Arroyo Hondo which recently developed a slum area!

Tourists are complaining even more about the hassles and aggresiveness of many beggars in the streets of the DR. It just turns out that most beggars are either Haitians or Haitian kids. They beg and beg and if you don't give them something, they send you to hell. What is that all about? If the tourist decide that is a reason to stop coming to the DR, then the Haitians are going to cost us our biggest and most important industry.

And the worst part is that the rest of the world is taking some aspect of Haitian culture and branding them as Dominican! Many Haitian Bateyes conduct vodoo ceremonies and they are considered to be Dominican vodoo ceremony, despite most participants being Haitians. Palo music has taken root in some parts of the country, Palo music is Compas in Spanish, a Haitian music now being considered as Dominican.

Also, ever since Trujillo was killed, the influx of Haitians has increase with the last four years of Hipomania being the zenith of such influxes. One noticeable thing is that the average human on the streets in the DR everyday appears to be darker and darker. Obviously, most are Haitians starting to intermingle with the population and others are Haitians passing themselves as Dominicans. Though, colorwise its not important, it is indicative of the Haitian presence in the country and how they are changing the face of the country everyday that passes.

[juancarlos]

Well, it seems to me that in the aftermath of Jeanne, the haitian situation will get even worse and that this will certainly have an impact on the DR. Because it is easier for Haitians to cross the border into DR than to reach Florida, I expect more will be going there. It is true they are overwhelming the services of another poor country like the DR whose own people emigrate to Puerto Rico looking for a better life. Let's hope that the international community does something this time and really helps Haiti. What could the DR do in order to stop the flow of people crossing over from Haiti? Do you see any solution to this problem? Why would Haitians go and live in slums in the DR when they could do that in their own country? This is something I do not understand. It seems to me that if you leave your own country, it is in order to have a better life. But what could the Dominican goverment and Dominican society do in order to stop this? Why is it that there are so many questions and complaints re this subject, but almost no answers or solutions?

[NALs]

Well, it seems to me that in the aftermath of Jeanne, the haitian situation will get even worse and that this will certainly have an impact on the DR. Because it is easier for Haitians to cross the border into DR than to reach Florida, I expect more will be going there.

This is so obvious!

It is true they are overwhelming the services of another poor country like the DR whose own people emigrate to Puerto Rico looking for a better life.

Hopefully the people in Washington would take note of that, oh wait, Puerto Rico is not really a part of the US, its just US controlled. Well, it might be better if PR becomes a state of the USA. That way, the US would do more to stop Dominicans from going overthere and the easiest way to do that is by releasing some of the pressure being put in the Dominican public system by removing the Haitians. Thus, the US start to invest more in Haiti to aleviate the DR which in turn would aleviate Puerto Rico. Once the US does something, the rest of the world follows.

Let's hope that the international community does something this time and really helps Haiti.

Keep hoping, one hundred years ago the US invaded Haiti because it was chaotic and unliveable. Today, 100 years later, they are still chaotic and unliveable with flareups once in a while. Somethings never change. The rest of the world will never help Haiti until Haiti posses a threat to them. Maybe if Al Qaeda makes a Haiti a training ground, watch how everything changes then!

What could the DR do in order to stop the flow of people crossing over from Haiti?

There are two ways of doing this:

1. The nicest way is by deporting all illegal haitians in the DR and tightening the border. Part of the tightening would be the elimination of the Haitian markets in Dominican border towns and strict surveilance of the border.

2. The nastiest way is by killing any Haitian seen crossing over the border and deporting those that are in the DR. The news will reach every Haitian that if they try to cross into the DR they will get shot and killed, watch the migration flow come to a screeching halt! Of course, the rest of the world would put their noses in this affair, but then again, the rest of the world is not being affected by the Haitian problem!!

Personally I prefer the second one simply because being a bit cruel yields results pronto! Being nice will yield results, but by that time, the entire island will belong to the Haitians with Dominican being a thing of the past!

Why would Haitians go and live in slums in the DR when they could do that in their own country?

I ask this question all the time. I guess its the fear of being seen as a loser back home for them. They go to the DR to search a better life, they find it a bit better but not much. They stay in the DR and when they visit Haiti, they brag about the life they are "living", little do the Haitians in Haiti knows that its not much different or better than before.

Or, it could be that SDQ has some first world areas which give a sort of respite from the pervasive poverty areas. That is something that Port-au-Prince lack!! Even Petionville, despite the mansions that area has an under construction feel to it.

This is something I do not understand. It seems to me that if you leave your own country, it is in order to have a better life.

That's the perception, but its not reality in most of the cases.

But what could the Dominican goverment and Dominican society do in order to stop this?

Advance ourselves and close the border! Make it a federal penalty to hire illegal immigrants and give capital punishment for those who don't comply with the law. Haitians must be pressured to accept their destiny as a country on their own. As long that they know they can just cross over to the DR if things get bad in Haiti, they will not do a thing to better themselves. Once they realize that there is no other place, they will demand better conditions. Its going to be bloody, its going to be rough, but that is the price for a better Haiti tomorrow.

Why is it that there are so many questions and complaints re this subject, but almost no answers or solutions?

There are answers, its just that the answers are not pretty and since people are afraid of admitting it, they decide to remain quiet. I don't, I say what has to be said. Whether I get criticized or not, in the end what had to be said was said!!!

[Marianopolita]

Nal0whs,

Your rhetoric is getting to sound like a broken record.

Your statement below is very disturbing. Do you know this for a fact because based on everything you say about Haitians in this thread and past threads, I would assume you DON'T speak to Haitians to validate that claim.

How do you justify making such a blanket statement like that and so far-fetched?

-Lesley D


[QUOTE=Nal0whs] I ask this question all the time. I guess its the fear of being seen as a loser back home for them. They go to the DR to search a better life, they find it a bit better but not much. They stay in the DR and when they visit Haiti, they brag about the life they are "living", little do the Haitians in Haiti knows that its not much different or better than before.

[NALs]

Your rhetoric is getting to sound like a broken record.

I don't consider it rhetoric, but everybody is free to express their opinion. And if it sounds like a broken record is because the topics on this board are very redundant. The same questions are asked a million times by different people and I give them the same answers!

Your statement below is very disturbing.

what is so disturbing about it? The samething applies to most migrants, let it be Dominicans moving to NY, Haitians to DR, Tunisians to Italy, or Guatemalan to Mexico. If one of the two reasons I mention are not partially true, then I just wonder with much questioning as to why do Haitians prefer to live in slums on the outskirts of Santo Domingo and constantly feel harrassed when they could be living in the same conditions in Port-au-Prince and be in the only country in the world that can't deny them.

Do you know this for a fact because based on everything you say about Haitians in this thread and past threads, I would assume you DON'T speak to Haitians to validate that claim.

I don't speak to poor Dominicans most of the time, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that when a poor Dominican leaves to NY and comes back to "visit", they act as big shots and as if they got millions. They impress the locals making the locals think they live in mansions, little do the locals know that the "Dominicano Ausente" either live in cramped apartments in Washington Heights, lives off the US government, is in debt up to their eyeballs, or all of those put together.

Aside from that, there could be other reasons why Haitians prefer to be in the DR rather than in Haiti. Maybe because they can beg to tourist for pesos, something that can't be done in Haiti due to a lack of visitors. Or maybe they can send their children to Dominican schools and get them at least some form of education. Or maybe they can sell more on the Dominican informal economy than they do in Haiti. The point is there is something keeping the Haitians here, despite most of them living like they were in Haiti or even a lower levels.

Please, give me some insight into what causes them to stay because I don't see other reasons why it happens.

It must be said that these are generalizations, there are always exceptions.

[locofoto]

Originally Posted by Nal0whs

[...]
There are two ways of doing this:
[...]
2. The nastiest way is by killing any Haitian seen crossing over the border and deporting those that are in the DR. The news will reach every Haitian that if they try to cross into the DR they will get shot and killed, watch the migration flow come to a screeching halt! Of course, the rest of the world would put their noses in this affair, but then again, the rest of the world is not being affected by the Haitian problem!!

Personally I prefer the second one simply because being a bit cruel yields results pronto![...]

Do you really understand what you are talking about? You can't be serious! You are paving the way for a genocide. That's weird, dangerous and crazy.

[Chris]

You may not agree with his policies or his economic theory, but for an understanding of the problem, perhaps you could read "The Nature of Mass Poverty" by John Kenneth Galbraith... http://post.economics.harvard.edu/fa...raith/bio.html

[Marianopolita]

Locofoto,

I totally agree with you. I saw that radical statement and chose to ignore it. I guess comments like that can be made because there is no accountability required. However, the first question that came to my mind was: "Is the poster willing to be the one to pull the trigger?" I ask this question based on the "put your money where your mouth is" theory. But needless to say the solution to the migration, influx, occupation etc. however one choses to define it of Haitians in the DR can't be resolved by the suggested method.

-Lesley D

Originally Posted by locofoto

Do you really understand what you are talking about? You can't be serious! You are paving the way for a genocide. That's weird, dangerous and crazy.