Santo Domingo Metro

[NALs]

Originally Posted by THE GDP

I see every body here talking about the power situation and it's true it looks like we understand that it's Ok to be with out power for a few hours every day, but our culture is use to "Trujillo/ Balaguer" Paternalism, but the reality these days is if we don't pay our public services we can't have them. For what I see here must of you leave or leaved in the US, if that is the case "HEY" you pay your "BILLS" right?! Provably we can improve the electricity generation when ALL OF US HERE IN DR (Lower class, middle class and the wealthy) pay for the power we consume, understand I’m against the METRO S@%! But the electricity issue can be worked on, now not having the right environment to educate our children and youth, not having enough beds in the hospitals or enough drugs to give to a patient are things Diandino and Leonel have to think about!!!!

Actually, most people that can afford to pay their electricity bills actually pay it. The problem are those poor folks in the fringe of society who want luxuries they can't afford. They simply tap into the system illegally and voila, they got "Luz" for free!

If all people who could not afford electricity simply live according to their means then the electric issue would be resolved.

About the hospital deal, that is true. However, walk into any public hospital just to look around and in many cases, illegal immigrants (mostly Haitians) outnumber tax paying Dominicans at these places.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that people who are not recognized by the government (ie. illegal immigrants) should not receive services they were not meant to receive. The same goes for schools, they are crowded, but Dominicans are not the only kids attending these schools.

Remember, the Dominican Republic is taking care of Dominicans and Haitians and a host of other people who are using services that were meant to go to Dominicans who paid their taxes.

See the problem when you try to be "nice".

[thepiper]

Originally Posted by Nal0whs

I'm still around. I've been very busy lately which reflects in my lower DR1 postings in the past few weeks.

However, I won't be posting much else on the Metro because I am against the project because its in government hands. I would love to see a Metro in this city, but not under government initiative, financing or otherwise.

Besides, regardless how much people debate about this on DR1, the reality is that it's goiing to get built anyway. It's better to give this issue a rest...

You are 100% correct sir. The first day of Gov. Leonel named a Manager for the Metro. That should have sent the signal that we will have a metro for better or worse. What about the low balling on the estimates. They want us to believe that they will be able to finish this at 30 or 40 percent of what other countries have spent in thier metros.

[NALs]

To say the least, this should be an interesting project to see unfold.

[Snuffy]

Nals, I always thought there was a trade off here. In return for being allowed to exploit the country...the government (wealthy) agree to take care of the poor at a bare minimum standard. So they get electricity. As for the Haitians...they would not be here if the rich did not want them here. They are here to do labor at very low prices and in return the trade off kicks in. You can't have people laying around dying for lack of health care. Although that does happen to some extent. The middle class, caught in the middle, pay their taxes and probably give up the most. But I doubt it has that much to do with being nice.

Originally Posted by Nal0whs

Actually, most people that can afford to pay their electricity bills actually pay it. The problem are those poor folks in the fringe of society who want luxuries they can't afford. They simply tap into the system illegally and voila, they got "Luz" for free!

If all people who could not afford electricity simply live according to their means then the electric issue would be resolved.

About the hospital deal, that is true. However, walk into any public hospital just to look around and in many cases, illegal immigrants (mostly Haitians) outnumber tax paying Dominicans at these places.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that people who are not recognized by the government (ie. illegal immigrants) should not receive services they were not meant to receive. The same goes for schools, they are crowded, but Dominicans are not the only kids attending these schools.

Remember, the Dominican Republic is taking care of Dominicans and Haitians and a host of other people who are using services that were meant to go to Dominicans who paid their taxes.

See the problem when you try to be "nice".

[Snuffy]

It will be a long time before you see no power problems here. There is another market to consider and they have a lot of pull. All those wealthy people making a living off of alternative power equipment. Markets drive policy.

Originally Posted by THE GDP

I see every body here talking about the power situation and it's true it looks like we understand that it's Ok to be with out power for a few hours every day, but our culture is use to "Trujillo/ Balaguer" Paternalism, but the reality these days is if we don't pay our public services we can't have them. For what I see here must of you leave or leaved in the US, if that is the case "HEY" you pay your "BILLS" right?! Provably we can improve the electricity generation when ALL OF US HERE IN DR (Lower class, middle class and the wealthy) pay for the power we consume, understand I’m against the METRO S@%! But the electricity issue can be worked on, now not having the right environment to educate our children and youth, not having enough beds in the hospitals or enough drugs to give to a patient are things Diandino and Leonel have to think about!!!!

[NALs]

Nals, I always thought there was a trade off here. In return for being allowed to exploit the country...the government (wealthy) agree to take care of the poor at a bare minimum standard.

Not really, the country is developing and moving forward in leaps and bounds.

What's happening is that people want the DR to become a little USA over night. Must I say that it took the US 164 years to consider implementing social programs to help its own poor, around 144 years to let its own women vote, close to 100 years to let its African citizens live free and around 184 years to allow its African citizens to be able to live without obvious and racist restrictions.

Must I also say that the 1920s (so called roaring) was a phenomenon among the rich in the USA. With half the population living below the poverty line, a third unemployed, and a meager existence for the remainder who were not part of the American elite, the 1920s still set the first step in ensuring pro-business government after the lessons of the Great Depression were learned. Give the DR some time, we have only been "free" for only 40 or so years. Before the 1960s, the Trujillo years were the quietest and that's taking into account all the fears and before that all the way to the colonial era it was guerilla fighting and when such fighting was over, it was repelling Haitian forces back to their side of the island. Not much energy left over to build up an economy, but now that we have stop that nonesense of fighting, now our economy has been booming. The DR is way ahead today that it was in 1966. Not every country in the world can say that and be accurate at the same time, and yet the DR can. Give it some time.

As for the Haitians...they would not be here if the rich did not want them here.

Actually, nobody wants them here, that's why they are treated badly on a day to day basis. The only reasons Haitians are here is because the Haitians will work for meager wages. It's capitalistic forces at work, period. Whoever offers the cheapest production costs wins the jobs, that's what's behind the Free Trade Zones also, after all, many of the American and European companies could pay more than 1,000 dollars a year to the thousands of Dominicans working in the Free Trade Zone. But wait, that means no more cheap stuff for the American masses and lowering of standards of living in the US, I guess the cheaper the better.

Nobody ever gets forced to do anything, in the end people decide for themselves whether they want to do something or not. Afterall, Haitians don't have to work for such meager wages, they could ask to be paid at rates Dominicans would be paid, but then Dominicans will be the one's hired and Haitians will lose their jobs because Dominicans prefer Dominicans if the price was the same between a Haitian and Dominican doing the same job.

You can't have people laying around dying for lack of health care.

Public health care in the DR was meant for Dominican citizens. Today, because of international pressure from NGOs in particular, Dominican hospitals have to attend everybody, legal or not. No wonder there are no medicines left since we are taking care of Dominicans and illegal Haitians. There is only enough money to take decent care of Dominicans, adding the Haitians and even the Cubans coming illegally to the system simply would strain the resources. The government could always increase funding to public health, but then that means increasing taxes and nobody wants that.

The middle class, caught in the middle, pay their taxes and probably give up the most. But I doubt it has that much to do with being nice.

Being nice is not part of Capitalism. Being economically rational is and the rules of capitalism and clean and clear. If there is an over supply to the demand, the price will drop. Too many unskilled Dominicans already maintain their own meager wages at such level by their sheer number of people. Adding unskilled Haitians to the mix makes it even worst. Since Dominicans will not work for the wages made worst by the Haitian presence, the Haitians will do it. They are not forced to do it, because even if a gun is pointed in someone's head, in the end, that person will decide if he or she will do it or not. The consequences of each is a different story, but in the end the decision was always in his/her hands, not in the hands of the gun holder. This is just an example.

It's too easy to sit around and simply say "it's the rich peoples fault" and/or "people there are just evil", etc without acknowledging the market forces at work. Ever wonder why the first world don't allow everybody to move there? It has something to do with keeping labor scarce to the point that wages remain decent. It's all a matter of supply and demand, period.

Let's not forget that the Haitian government also has some fault in any of this. After all, a country that has continually declined from the day they got their independence to today should have had developed a government that at least cares a tiny bit. The Haitian government is not doing that, only whinning and complaining about how the rest of the world treat their people, but nothing is being done so their people can have a better living in their land. A few months ago the prime minister or president of Haiti came to Santo Domingo asking Dominicans to help Haitians overcome their economic problem they themselves brought upon themselves. Dominicans in general are struggling with ourselves, what makes this guy think that we are going to take care of his problems? And before that (around Sept of last year) he even suggested opening the border and letting people cross freely. Watch wages collapse even further if such thing happens.

Supply and demand, nothing else is at work here. This is capitalism at its best, if anybody don't like it, then plan a revolution for socialism. After all, the huge inequities in Cuba and the American presence there is what inspired Castro to revolt, of course being "good" has done few things for the growth of Cuba as we know it.

[Dolores]

For those following the debate on the metro (we know the government will build it because they say so...) see Alicia Ortega's TV report on it this Thursday, 3 March at 9 pm.

[quejeyoke]

and Leonel just confirmed that the Metro project is a go as he is presenting the idea to different investors and looking for financing for the project in spain. He even said on his inagural speech that he'll start the Metro project. I just find it extremely pathetic and totally uncalled for that he doesn't try to tackle the electricity problem in the DR with such enthus and with mission critical priority.

[Antillano]

I find it very interesting that Santo Domingo wants to build a subway.

I have followed the construction of the heavy rail system in San Juan, Puerto Rico - Tren Urbano - very closely through the years. I have been to and studied San Juan's urban structure. Urban sprawl is a huge problem. The Metropolitan area's population is about 1.1 million, containing 27.5% of the island's population and 2/3 of employment. Puerto Rico has more cars per person and per paved road than in any place in the world. A mass transit system was needed, but the way its been carried out is horrendous. Phase I began construction in 1997 by a corrupt, pro-statehood government and was focused only in the Metropolitan Area. Needless to say, it went over its original $1 billion over budget (The final cost was $2.25 billion, of which $1.5 billion was payed for by the Puerto Rico government.) and although it opened to much fan fare in December (for free rides) and began charging two days ago, the ridership is minimal. (40,000) I think a light rail system should have been constructed through the major municipalities of the island first and then integrated with a mass transit system in the Metro Area, with a strong integrated and expansive bus route and urban development plans around the stations. (Besides the very modern and beautiful Colise de Puerto Rico José Miguel Agrelot)

I do not know the configuration of Santo Domingo, but if it's anything like San Juan, it could use a mass transit system, but the rest of the nation should not be ignored and sound urban planning and development focused on the transit system should be a priority.

For more pictures of Tren Urbano, go to: http://flickr.com/groups/trenurbano/pool/

[Criss Colon]

We said it would never be built and it won't! After all,we now have the "Artificial Island" to pour "Millions" into the hands of the Government "Officials"!

By the way,"Nalowls" you want to admit you were wrong on this one,or just ignore that "LITTLE" problem as always??
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