Santo Domingo Metro

[suarezn]

Sorry to post two in a row, but I just read the price tag they announced in today's papers...326 USD million per kilometer (of course we know the real price tag is double that)...we would borrow that.
...AND we don't have any money to give the doctors a raise, to buy supplies for the hospitals, to fix the huge potholes you can find all over, to do something about the electricity problem, to build or fix schools or furnish those already built, to help build affordable housing for the poor, etc...etc...etc...

Even better was the statement that it will be an underground metro system. Oh joy...

[Naufrago]

Originally Posted by juancarlos

I read that Leonel Fdez. was presented today with several alternatives to the proposed metro in order to improve public transportation in the city. What do you think of those?

I like the monorail idea, I'm assuming they mean an elevated, futuristic looking kind of affair. Maybe a spur that goes out to the airport and to the Free Zone. At 15million/k it's alot better than the 50 million they're estimating for the underground. If you thought NYC subways were bad in the Summer could you imagine riding them here! Trolleys and Buses might be more cost effective but they've got to get some of this traffic off of the roadways!

[MerengueDutchie]

I propose the DR fixes its roads and buys a few buses.. Metro is way to expensive! I think the Dr should rather look at countries like Cuba, Guatamala and Costa Rica for examples than at Miami, New York or other fully developed cities...

Stick to the means you do have

[TEHAMA]

Yes, its another slow day at the office here.

I have served as Project Manager for several rail projects. They have NO idea what its all about. You have drainage issues, semistic issues, lighting, safety/evacuation, tunnel ventilation, staffing, maintenance and techincal expertise...and thats not even dealing with financing, administration, and construction issues.

The entire idea is completely laughable at best. Here is a country without any "organized" form a existing public transportation (buses) building a "subway?"

Las Vegas had to close their new rail monorail line for several months because the doors bought from Spain would open while the damn rail was moving above street!! We talked, talked to those City Government folks that is wasn't a good idea, but casinos want something "sexy." Now they have something sexy, dangerous, and full of potential law suits.

Curitiba, Brazil has the best possible solution that might be applicable to Santo Domingo: Very long buses that move like trains on streets which are grade-seperated. Later you can look at replacing the buses for actual trains and incorporate a light rail service.

I predict this will end up as one (or several) major well holes left unfinished for several years. If they start diggin in your neighborhood raise holy hell or move cause it will be there for a while.

Does any one know if San Juan's trains are running? That project I know for sure dates back to atleast 1995 and they "have" a scheduled bus operation in place to move people onto and off the train.
TEHAMA

ps- It was very odd to me to see the PRESIDENT meeting and discussing a rail project. I know its apples and oranges, but it would be to like idiot Bush sitting in on Boston's Big Dig. I know, I know...its just odd to me.

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Originally Posted by Criss Colon

Dominican Government Motto"!!

"If You Never Build It,You Can Never STEAL from It!"

That's the Philadelphia city government motto also, Criss.

BTW, Tehama, there is a sort of functioning public bus system in Santo Domingo called OMSA. It actually worked okay under the previous Ferndandez administration that created it, but fell apart under Hippo. Any sensible parasite knows that the beast must live so you can live off of its blood indefinitely. Still, Hippo's people tended to drain the blood and eat everything down to the bones.

Interestingly, San Juan's trains are now running. However, that was a federally-funded project with plenty of monitoring by US DOT.

I've read that the IMF is okay with the metro idea because the Fernandez people were able to convince them that it would be a self-supporting infrastructure project - thus intellectually satisfying those Harvard MBAs. Beyond the surface, even the IMF must realize it's a joke. However, the IMF is always fine with boondoggles as long as the money is spent on private suppliers or "concessionaires" from the wealthy countries, including the US, Canada, Japan and Spain.

The metro cannot make sense until the current transportation mayhem is brought under control. There's just no way that a subway ride can cost less than a ride in an uninspected, black smoke billowing 1983 Toyata Tercel crammed with 8 people and two live chickens inside despite the massive holes in its floorboard. And, if there is a less expensive transportation option in a poor city, people will use it.

So why doesn't Leonel prove to us that the Metro makes sense in advance by proving that the transport sector can be controlled and regulated now.

[Chirimoya]

Seeing as Nals has gone AWOL, I have to say it instead:

"you're just a bunch of pessimists!"

[TEHAMA]

BINGO!!

Originally Posted by Porfio_Rubirosa

The metro cannot make sense until the current transportation mayhem is brought under control. There's just no way that a subway ride can cost less than a ride in an uninspected, black smoke billowing 1983 Toyata Tercel crammed with 8 people and two live chickens inside despite the massive holes in its floorboard. And, if there is a less expensive transportation option in a poor city, people will use it.

nothing else said.
TEHAMA

[deelt]

Sorry Chiri
I have to disagree on this one. I think there are better alternatives. It is ust too expensive given the current needs and capacity of DR. They biggest issue here is that there is need for the creation of a Comprehensive Plan. DR never really had one. And I am talking about a real plan one that really incorporates the need for population growth, needs for schools, etc. This is about HAVING A VISION of what the major cities of DR should look like in 5, 10, 15, 20 ,30, 40 , 50 years.

Here is what a friend of mine who is a transportation planner and I have been discussing:

-------------------------

CURITIBA, BRAZIL

Three decades of thoughtful city planning

The city of Curitiba provides the world with a model in how to integrate
sustainable transport considerations into business development, road
infrastructure development, and local community development.

Curitiba first outlined its Master Plan in 1965, with the main goals of
limiting central area growth and encouraging commercial and service sector
growth along two structural north-south transport arteries, radiating out
from the city center. The Master Plan also aimed to provide economic
support for urban development through the establishment of industrial zones
and to encourage local community self-sufficiency by providing all city
districts with adequate education, health care, recreation, and park areas.

The plan called for the integration of traffic management, transportation,
and land-use planning to achieve its goals, and maintained flexibility in
its regulations to allow for different future development scenarios.

The Master Plan established the guiding principle that mobility and land
use can not be disassociated with each other if the city's future design is
to succeed. In order to fulfill the goals of the Master Plan in providing
access for all citizens, the main transport arteries were modified over
time to give public transport the highest priority.

Each of the five arteries contains one two-way lane devoted exclusively to
express buses. This inner lane is flanked on either side by 1) a local
access lane for cars and 2) a high-capacity one-way route for use by both
cars and buses. Separating traffic types and establishing exclusive bus
lanes on the city's predominant arteries helped to mold two defining
characteristics of the city's transport system: a safe, reliable, and
efficient bus service operating without the hazards and delays inherent to
mixed-traffic bus service; and densification of development along the bus
routes.

About 1,100 buses make 12,500 trips per day, serving 1.3 million
passengers. Five different types of buses operate in Curitiba:
Express buses operate exclusively on the arteries' dedicated busways.

"Rapid" buses operate on both the arteries and on other main streets
throughout the city, and their routes are changed to respond to demand.
These buses stop at tube-shaped stations designed for protection from the
weather and for quick bus entry and exit. They also accommodate the
handicapped.

A new "bi-articulated" bus, introduced in December, 1992, is a form of
rapid bus operating on the outside high-capacity lanes. Bi-articulated
buses - the largest in the world - are actually three buses attached by two
articulations, and are capable of carrying 270 passengers.

"Inter-district" buses bring passengers between the city's sectors lying
between the arteries, and thus provide a crucial link between the routes of
the express and bi-articulated buses.

Finally, "feeder" buses mix with traffic on all other city streets and
bring passengers to transfer stations called "District Terminals," around
which local urban development and commercial activity has flourished.

Curitiba's buses are privately-owned by ten companies, managed by a
quasi-public company. With this public-private collaboration, public sector
concerns (e.g. safety, accessibility, and efficiency) are combined private
sector goals (e.g. low maintenance and operating costs). The bus companies
receive no subsidies; instead all mass transit money collected goes to a
fund and companies are paid on a distance travelled basis.

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Seeing as Nals has gone AWOL, I have to say it instead:

"you're just a bunch of pessimists!"

[Chirimoya]

deelt, check your sarcasm-meter and look back at my post, and note the smiley with the evil grin.

See also my other posts on the matter, in the Fantasy Island thread. I know that's not what it's called, but if you search on 'Fantasy Island' it'll come up.

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Originally Posted by deelt

Curitiba's buses are privately-owned by ten companies, managed by a quasi-public company. With this public-private collaboration, public sector concerns (e.g. safety, accessibility, and efficiency) are combined private
sector goals (e.g. low maintenance and operating costs). The bus companies
receive no subsidies; instead all mass transit money collected goes to a
fund and companies are paid on a distance travelled basis.

Typically, in order to create a successful publically operated transit system, a government needs to create a monopoly by eliminating all existing and future competition on the same routes. This is because a government-operated transit system will always be more expensive than the 1983 Toyota Tercel alternative.

In the case of Santo Domingo, though, you can imagine the complications. Could the monopoly be created? At what cost? Strikes? Riots? Could passenger charges be kept under control? How much abuse and looting of the system by the politicians and unions? Would the system collapse at the first sign of service outages? Etc., etc.

For this reason, I don't think a publically operated transit system makes sense. To me, licensing and regulating two competing transit concessionaires to operate on the same or similar routes makes a lot more sense as a method for ensuring safe efficient operation and controlled costs.