Santo Domingo Metro

[Chirimoya]

I'm guessing that the Metro ministry people here have all the facts, figures and case studies for metros and other urban transport solutions that we have been able to get our hands on in this thread.

We can see quite clearly that a metro is a completely insane, innappropriate and unworkable model.

Why can't they?!?

[Dolores]

May I add that the Ambassador of Canada also explained that the city of Vancouver turned the construction of a metro down because of its high cost. There is something known as "opportunity cost", remember. To build the metro we will have to sacrifice a lot of other more worthy and needed projects. Vancouver understood that, but here in Santo Domingo...

[thepiper]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

I'm guessing that the Metro ministry people here have all the facts, figures and case studies for metros and other urban transport solutions that we have been able to get our hands on in this thread.

We can see quite clearly that a metro is a completely insane, innappropriate and unworkable model.

Why can't they?!?

Because Chirimoya, their vision is currently impaired by $$$$$$$$$.

[Chirimoya]

This country endured four years of incompetent and corrupt government, had the sense to vote it out, accepted the need for 'austerity' in anticipation of economic recovery, and eventual development -- only to be presented with this?

An angry mob should burn down the 'ministry' with them inside it.

[Hillbilly]

After my initial diatribe, I sort of let this one ride its own momentum. No insults no yelling. Wonderful, common sense opinions backed by great examples from all over the world..

I took this to my classes and we looked at the numbers. At $377 MM= RD$10.933 billion divided by ten pesos a trip is 1, 093, 300,000 trips, or 138 trips by every Dominican in the DR today.. the more you look at the numbers, the mor riduculous they become.
As far as I have been able to find out, there is not a single, undergound rail system that is not heavily subsidized by either the city or the state. The boondoggle over in San Juan is just one example.

Totally frustrating for a group of intelligent people like those that have posted here.

One comment on what Mandeng, the IMF rep said. His position was that the government, in order to carry out such an ambitious project, had to keep under certain ceilings, and, in order to do that, it would have to re-arrange some of its programs-ie. those with social implications.

What this translates to, is that there will be very little money for anything else BUT the freakin' Metro. And even scarier is the fact that the same day on the same page that blared out the $377 million pricetag for the Metro, there was another, tiny, note about just $100 million that was going to be spent on the remodeling of the Palza de la Cultura, Bellas Artes and a new General Archive....Good people, that is clearly RD$14 + billion in one fell swoop!..Sorta make ya wonder if ya didn't pick the wrong profession, don't it??

HB

P.S. As implied in my OP, it seems that there is a 200,000 rider deficit, everyday, for the Metro, and it will cost the government RD$60,000,000 a month (US$2 million or so).
In NYC, it costs $2.00 (or more) to ride the subway. Here, they are talking about 33¢ a ride. Hey, that is really a bargain, come on down strap hangers, and ride our subway!! In order to pay for itself at RD$10 a ride, they would need 350,000 riders a day, and they ain't there. Diabdino Peña, the Metro Minister of State and Magical Master of Numbers told everyone that they would average 10,000 riders a day for 14 hours of service, and that is only 140,000 a day.....go figure...

This is gonna get good.

[suarezn]

HB: Not to mention that we all know that the real price will not be anywhere close to the 327 million mentioned. Multiply by 3 at least.

I will say it again; This guy (Diandino) must have something on Leonel, thus the reason why he can't say no to him. Maybe Leonel killed someone at one time, maybe he's gay, who knows...but it is the only thing I can see justifying having this guy in charge of anything, much less something like this...

[Lesley D]

HB (et al.), thanks for the update and the cost breakdown. I don't know why I insist on frustrating myself by reading more about this metro but it is imperative that I do read more because it will impact the country greatly in years to come.

Now this .33 cents per ride is a joke. Most subway systems (if not all) around the world operate at a loss and government funding, taxes and subsidies cover the rest of the costs of public transportation. So are any of the DR governments going to cough up the money to cover the operating deficits? (This is a rhetorical question no answer required). I will now go and read the latest just to frustrate myself and as well I want hear about how the government all of sudden will the keep the electricity supply running for 14 hrs. +

This whole metro/subway fiasco reminds me of the Panama Canal Treaty. According to the treaty signed in 1977, el Tratado Torrijos-Carter, the operation of the canal was in the hands of a US agency and it would be turned over to the Panamanian government on December 31,1999 at 11:59PM. Well guess who is crying now? Operating costs are killing the Panamanian government as well they need money for expansion because the ships that need to pass through the canal are too big and that could result in loss of business among other problems. They have even offered it back to the US.

Unless Leonel has a different agenda that we do not know about, he should have a focus group (as he claims) that would study metro systems around the world over the next few years. The focus group should exam systems that are considered successful and ones that are considered inefficient. I can name many in both categories before pursuing what seems like a "fly by night dream". May be he thinks this will secure his re-election in 2008.

I stand by my first post #5. If this project comes to pass it will be:

UN FRACASO POR FALTA DE VISIÓN

-Lesley D-

[Chirimoya]

Originally Posted by Hillbilly

No insults no yelling.

Only because we've found a topic that everyone agrees on.

Originally Posted by Lesley D

According to the treaty signed in 1914, el Tratado Torrijos-Carter, the operation of the canal was in the hands of a US agency and it would be turned over to the Panamanian government on December 31,1999 at 11:59PM.

1977. Torrijos and Carter weren't even born in 1914.

[Lesley D]

Sorry, what I meant to say was the canal was opened in 1914, the agreement was signed in 1977.


Thanks, I will edit my post (while I still can).

-Lesley D-

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Only because we've found a topic that everyone agrees on.


1977. Torrijos and Carter weren't even born in 1914.

[hugoke01]

I can but agree with most comments about the metro plans for SD just like to add the following :

They had very recently serious problems with the metro in Barcelona were houses colapsed and more than 1.000 people have to be relocated because the tunnel of an extension of the metro line they are building didn't hold .
See e.g.
http://actualidad.terra.es/articulo/html/av2134769.htm

I hope for the SD population that if they would continue with this unsane idea of constructing a metro they do a better job than they are presently doing in Barcelona ( doubt strongly they will ..)

Can't imagine that the DR government sitting around the table and evaluating projects and budgets don't put a metro project at the bottom of some wishful thinking list and there are very basic reasons for that :

I know I will repeat what several already mentioned

- seen the economical situation (money)of the country it makes no sense

- the economical improvement (return on investment ) will be zero

- seen other needs of the counyty the priority of a metro should be zero

- there are other much cheaper alternatives to improve the traffic situation somewhat if supported by the required discipline and controls ( in one reply a good example was given of buses )

The only reasons I can think of why they want to build a metro are :

- your name on the inauguration plate
- and then your name will be remembered for centuries and you will be in the history books of the DR for centuries (or forever )

Originally Posted by Dolores

May I add that the Ambassador of Canada also explained that the city of Vancouver turned the construction of a metro down because of its high cost. There is something known as "opportunity cost", remember. To build the metro we will have to sacrifice a lot of other more worthy and needed projects. Vancouver understood that, but here in Santo Domingo...