Azucar Amarga on Primer Impacto

[Chirimoya]

Originally Posted by Narcosis

Yes of course they should call it a day under a true free market, but exactly who should call it a day? Why is it that no one talks about the billions in tax Europeans and Americans pay to subsidize their sugar beat and corn growers to maintain an artificially low price? Who is the true bad guy here?

Good points. The so-called champions of the free market are the first ones to protect their own, but that's another matter.

Why don't we compare wages with Chinese workers, how come we don't see anyone complaining about those "slave wages", in detriment to American and European blue collar workers? Hipocracy or double standards?

We're not talking about China, we're talking about the DR, because it is on our doorstep, and it is natural for this to be a concern for those of us who care about the DR. Anyone who is concerned about human rights at a global level is equally horrified by conditions in China, and does what they can in that context.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by stewart

I agree that we need to sparate the child labor violations from the adult wage problems for the sake of discussion.
But what about machines? I have to assume they would be gas powered. Or diesel. At the cost of cas per callon, they get 10 laborers that will work all day. Not to mention the initial investment for the machines.
I disagree that if they rais wages, they would need to let other people goto compensate. I think the major consideration is protecting the land owners profit margin. I bet that they pay a handsom amount to police et al to look the other way on this. If they were less greedy, they could improve wages and conditions and still be profitable. Maybe not at the same level.
I have a hard time believeing that the margins are so thin that they couldn't go from 10 pesos to 20 a day.
I mentioned that the sugar industry generates 75 million dollars a year. That is the figure thrown out on Primer Impacto. I didn't question it.
THey also mentioned that sugar production is basically controlled by 2 of the wealthiest Dominican families. I can only assume that they are well connected and are very much in control of legislation, police rule and the ever important PR machine.

An increase in minimum wage does cause unemployment to increase and that is very clearly documented in all countries of the world.

If you look at Europe, many countries there have absurdly high minimum wages (higher than the US in many cases) and as a correspondence, a very very high unemployment rate. Many of these countries also have very juicy unemployment benefits from their respective governments, but the effect of the high minimum wage exacerbate the unemployment levels.

Ever been to France? Have you ever been to a Carrefour in France? Notice there are no baggers in the check out areas? Wonder why? High minimum wage makes economically unfeasible to employ baggers, as such all those people who would have been baggers are unemployed, despite some finding jobs in other areas, they overflow other areas and create an over abundance of workers who remain unemployed.

You never know how grateful you probably are for baggers until you have to bag your own groceries yourself. The lower minimum wage in the US is also responsible for the lower unemployment levels in the US.

The DR is in 1920s USA position, except that the DR has a minimum wage when the US did not when it was in a similar development stage. Thus, we have a rather modest to high unemployment rate. Sure, that keeps wages higher than other wise, but the question is this - is it better to keep wages high at the expense of many who would have earn at least something if there was no minimum wage?

[NALs]

Saying it is better than starving in Haiti is not quite the point.

Most Haitian sugar workers are brought here on the basis of false promises, much like the DR women sex workers who are lured to Europe with promises of much more money and better conditions than they end up in. Some are even abducted.

Why is it that many of them come back on their own after they are deported? I mean, just go to the Dajabon or Jimani. Ever notice that much of the flow is going from west to east?

Once they are in the bateyes, it is too late for them to do anything about this: they are stuck there. In the non-productive season they have to eat, so their only option is to run up debts at the company colmados, which they then have to work to repay during the harvest. Some places even pay in coupons only valid for those colmados, not cash.

Again, if many manage to leave the bateyes, they get caught by the police and deported. Now, why do they risk their lives crossing the border at will latter in time?

The average income per capita in Haiti is about US$1 per day, three times more than RD$10. So even if a Haitian stays in Haiti and manages to earn half of the average income, s/he will be better off than someone working in the DR sugar fields.

Explain the high migration flow to the DR from Haiti. Also, explain why 90% according to the world bank, of Haitians live in abject poverty? Notice, abject poverty, not normal poverty.

Also, why is it that many Haitians would tell you that they stay in the DR because of Haiti and DR, the DR is better in economic terms? After all, if Haiti provides such a good life for them, should'nt we be seeing a decrease in outflow of human capital from that country?

It is true about world sugar prices and the effect of corn syrup, but hey, guys, you're the free market economists - doesn't this mean that the sugar companies should call it a day?

I am a free market economist. The problem is that real free market doesn't exist in most industry as of yet, though its called free market, but its not either free or fair.

Think of it this way, after Sept. 11 most major US airliners were going to fail and go belly up. Uncle Sam saved them in a very un-capitalistic fashion. Those airlines should have been left to fail if free market was truly the law of the land, but its obvious that it was not. As a result from such action, Dominican airliners (Aeromar in particular, but also Air Santo Domingo's NYC-SDQ flights) went belly up because they couldn't compete against American Airlines and few other American owned airlines. If free market truly existed, American Airlines should had failed after Sept. 11 opening up the Dominican airline market for the Dominican owned airliners, but that did not happened. The very un-capitalistic action from the US government resulted in the demise of the Dominican airliners who racked up tremendous debt after trying to take advantage of an opportunity they had to make it big when that opportunity was artificially destroyed by the very same government that speaks loudly to third world nations of free market and free trade.

I support Free Market, but I wish it would come into existence.

[Chirimoya]

They come here because there are jobs, or are led to believe there will be jobs.

Supply and demand, it's called. You know as well as I do that if no one employed them or promised them employment, the flow would all but cease. So who's to blame, exactly?

I know what it's like in the poorest parts of Haiti. The poorest parts of the DR are better, but not much better. I also know what it's like in the Bateyes. Do you?

On the 'free' market? No debate.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

They come here because there are jobs, or are led to believe there will be jobs.

Supply and demand, it's called. You know as well as I do that if no one employed them or promised them employment, the flow would all but cease. So who's to blame, exactly?

I know what it's like in the poorest parts of Haiti. The poorest parts of the DR are better, but not much better. I also know what it's like in the Bateyes. Do you?

On the 'free' market? No debate.

Those are my points exactly.

1.There are jobs here that simply don't exist in Haiti. It's alot better to earn 1 cent than 0 cents.

2. The supply and demand is an interesting notion, because once wages in the sugar industry rise with the implementation of new technology and the consolidation of all wages into the much fewer demand for labor, that would catch the interest of Dominicans and since the same high pay would go for either Dominican or Haitian, the Dominican will get the job and the Haitian will starve.

The notion that Dominicans don't cut cane because its hard work and dirty is false. Dominicans don't pick coffee in the mountains either, but they do in Puerto Rico. Again, if the price is right, a Dominican will do any job presented to him or her.

3. Since you have testified that the poorest areas of the DR are better than the poorest areas of Haiti, I rest my case. Even if its a tiny bit better, its still better. I'm sure that if your boss would offer you a $1 raise, you would accept it even though its barely nothing, but it still better than a $0 raise.

[stewart]

Originally Posted by Nal0whs

An increase in minimum wage does cause unemployment to increase and that is very clearly documented in all countries of the world.

If you look at Europe, many countries there have absurdly high minimum wages (higher than the US in many cases) and as a correspondence, a very very high unemployment rate. Many of these countries also have very juicy unemployment benefits from their respective governments, but the effect of the high minimum wage exacerbate the unemployment levels.

Ever been to France? Have you ever been to a Carrefour in France? Notice there are no baggers in the check out areas? Wonder why? High minimum wage makes economically unfeasible to employ baggers, as such all those people who would have been baggers are unemployed, despite some finding jobs in other areas, they overflow other areas and create an over abundance of workers who remain unemployed.

You never know how grateful you probably are for baggers until you have to bag your own groceries yourself. The lower minimum wage in the US is also responsible for the lower unemployment levels in the US.

The DR is in 1920s USA position, except that the DR has a minimum wage when the US did not when it was in a similar development stage. Thus, we have a rather modest to high unemployment rate. Sure, that keeps wages higher than other wise, but the question is this - is it better to keep wages high at the expense of many who would have earn at least something if there was no minimum wage?

Most of Europe struggles with things like this because of unbearabel costs to welfare and social security type plans. And they insist on the nebulous "livable wage". Making the minimum wage enough to support a family. That is a stupid idea. People are always pushing the idea here in the US as well.
But I don't think that is the issue here.
We are talking about:
1-The exploitation of minors for sheap labor and
2-The exploitation of other immigrant workers because there isn't even an enforcible minimum wage.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by stewart

Most of Europe struggles with things like this because of unbearabel costs to welfare and social security type plans. And they insist on the nebulous "livable wage". Making the minimum wage enough to support a family. That is a stupid idea. People are always pushing the idea here in the US as well.
But I don't think that is the issue here.
We are talking about:
1-The exploitation of minors for sheap labor and
2-The exploitation of other immigrant workers because there isn't even an enforcible minimum wage.

Well, what many people here are asking is for higher wages. Current wages are going according to market demand and supply of labor. The only way to increase the wages is by increasing the minimum wage which would create all the other stuff I've already explained here.

[Chirimoya]

Yeah, I think we did go off on a tangent there.

Without having seen the TV report, it seems to me that the issues go beyond daily rates and why they are so low: it's more about the fact that these companies are so completely above the law of the land and international conventions, that they can get away with employing children for pennies, together will all the usual exploitation and abuse of their adult workers. It's also about the fact that some voices are raised in protest, but nothing is actually done.

I know that Batey Relief do not do lobby or campaign about people's rights, they are mainly a charity for Batey dwellers. Organisations like CIIR, Amnesty, Anti-Slavery International and several others have raised the issue at international level, but with very little impact. Precisely because those in control have such power.

[stewart]

Originally Posted by Nal0whs

Well, what many people here are asking is for higher wages. Current wages are going according to market demand and supply of labor. The only way to increase the wages is by increasing the minimum wage which would create all the other stuff I've already explained here.

I think current Batey wages are based on desperate people that have no legal recourse accepting what is offered by the land owners.

[juancarlos]

[quote=Chirimoya]Yeah, I think we did go off on a tangent there.

Without having seen the TV report, it seems to me that the issues go beyond daily rates and why they are so low: it's more about the fact that these companies are so completely above the law of the land and international conventions, that they can get away with employing children for pennies, together will all the usual exploitation and abuse of their adult workers. It's also about the fact that some voices are raised in protest, but nothing is actually done. "

I agree. I had read the El Nuevo Herald report when it first came out and I saw part of the TV report.