And nobody backs down....

[NALs]

It's always interesting to read posts here, especially when the thread focuses on race identifications in the DR and rest of the world vs. the US version.

One thing that I find interesting is not that Dominicans and the rest of the world recognize a mixed person when a person is mixed vs. the US simply lumping up mixed with unmixed peoples (not just among Afro-Americans, but also with Hispanics all being lumped up into one category as if we are all the same).

The interesting thing is how the American influenced peoples firmly maintain their belief and don't attempt to move out of their mentality, just how the Dominicans do the same with their perspective.

I guess the question is this, why is it that neither side is willing to give up their beliefs?

Is it culture shock? Is it cultural misinterpretation? Is it arrogance?

The American influenced people claim (theoretically) that if you are not white, you are black.

Most of the world (DR included) claims that if you are not white, you may be black, but then again, there are shades of gray in between.

Why is it that when these two ideas come into contact, neither side is willing to give up his/her stance?

I would like the answers to be personal, not academically answered. What do you personally think this is so?

[Naufrago]

Is this really NalOwhs asking? Your post seems far too short and concise? And you don't want an academic answer either?

Well, anyway, my first thought is that until recently and even today, the black/white question in the US is really a legal distinction. Originally with slavery I suppose, were there any white slaves? (was that possible?), later with the segregation laws and regulations, and even today with affirmative action programs. Other countries, with the exception of South Africa, and maybe others that I am ignorant of, just don't have that sort of tradition. That experience and the one drop of blood rule created a mentality that said if your not white you're black.

[Larry]

Originally Posted by Nal0whs

Is it culture shock? Is it cultural misinterpretation? Is it arrogance?

I think that from the American standpoint, it is cultural misinterpretation, but I will get back to that.

Now I want to preface this by saying that I feel this is the overall American perception and not necessarily mine. Having said that, I don't think that Americans see people as white or black as you say. I do think however that alot of white Americans see people as white and non-white. Then the non-whites are put into sub-categories. Blacks are just that....blacks. Most Americans would see a black Cuban or black Puerto-Rican or what have you and put them in the same category as a black American. Take Bernie Williams from the New York Yankees for example. At first glance, he looks just like an African American. Fellow white New Yorkers have said to me something to the effect, " Bernie Williams is black but says he is Puerto Rican". I explain that he IS Puerto Rican. They don't understand and I don't go into explainations.

Asians on the other hand are mostly referred to as "Chinese" or just orientals. If someone looks oriental, they are assumed to be Chinese. Most people assume that if an oriental is not Chinese, he must be Japanese. If you correct someone and explain that the person they are referring to is Vietnamese or Thai or Phillipino or whatever, most Americans just look confused or they respond with "same thing".

All middle easterns used to be assumed to be Indian. If he looked like he was from that part of the world, he was an Indian. If he had a head wrap. He was an Indian. If you had a dot on your head, you were an Indian. You could be from Lebenon or Syria but you were still an Indian. Now since 9-11, most Americans realize that many of the people they considered to be Indian before are actually from different countries other than India. But this has become too confusing so they are all lumped into the category of "Arabs" now. Dosen't matter where they are from or what religion they are. Forget about religions. Way too confusing.

Now....anyone from Latin American or the carribean who speaks Spanish is not a Colombian or a Dominican or a Cuban or what have you....they are "Spanish". It dosen't matter what country they are from, they are all lumped into the category of "Spanish". People have asked me, " How are the nice young Spanish girls down there (in the DR). I try to explain that they are not Spanish but Dominican. People look confused. I go on to explain that Spanish people come from Spain. Dominican people come from the Dominican Republic. Most people respond with something like, "well they speak Spanish". I respond to this with, " well, you speak English, are you English? No, you are American". This really confuses people and at this point, I usually drop the subject.

So, you see, it is it is not arrogance but ignorance, or cultural misinterpretation I guess you could say.

I guess my post may have come across as funny to some and sad to others. I agree with both.

Larry

[Hillbilly]

Actually, this is very common, Larry and you are so right. Excellent observations.

Nowadays in the US there are some tremendous advantages to being Latin. I know one woman, very dark, Dajabon-area Dominican lady that got a full ride for her Masters and quick acceptance for her doctorate all because she was (1) Female, (2) black and (3) Hispanic...not that she wasn't very bright, but she did fill three Affirmative Action slots at one time.

That said, black/white is losing its meaning around the world.



HB

[Larry]

That is not who I "associate" with. I am just speaking about so many people I come in contact with and how the average American percieves things. My family and people who I choose to become friends with know better.

Larry

[chuckuindy]

Basically it is arrogance. Still today, one hundred and fifty years post slavery, many in American culture portrays Black men as innately savage, animalistic, destructive, and criminal -- deserving punishment, maybe death. Black men are depicted as hideous, terrifying predators that target helpless victims, especially White women.

The "terrible crime" most often mentioned in connection with the Black men was rape, more specifically, the rape of a White woman. At the beginning of the twentieth century, much of the virulent, anti-Black propaganda that found its way into scientific journals, local newspapers, and best-selling novels focused on the stereotype of the Black rapist. The claim that Black brutes were, in epidemic numbers, raping White women became the public rationalization for most of Americas White society.

Just prior to the civil right movement in the US, In 1955, Emmitt Till, a Black fourteen year old Chicago youth, visited his relatives in Mississippi. Till apparently referred to a female White store clerk as "Baby." Several days later, the woman's husband and brother took Till from his uncle's home, beat him to death -- his head was crushed and one eye was gouged out--then threw his body into the Tallahatchie River. The men were caught, tried, and found innocent by an all-White jury.

In 1994 Susan Smith, a young mother in Union, South Carolina, claimed that a man had commandeered her car with her two boys -- Alex, 14-month-old, and Michael, 3-year-old. She described the carjacker as a "Black male in his late 20s to early 30s, wearing a plaid shirt, jeans, and a toboggan-type hat." A composite of her description was published in newspapers, nationally and locally. Smith appeared on national television, tearfully begging for her sons to be returned safely. An entire nation wept with her, and the image of the Black brute resurfaced. The Reverend Mark Long, the pastor of the church where Smith's family attended services, said in reference to the Black suspect, "There are some people that would like to see this man's brains bashed in."
After nine days of a gut-wrenching search and strained relations between local Blacks and Whites, there was finally a break in the case: Susan Smith confessed to drowning her own sons. In a two-page handwritten confession she apologized to her sons, but she did not apologize to Blacks, nationally or locally. "It was hard to be Black this week in Union," said Hester Booker, a local Black man. "The Whites acted so different. They wouldn't speak (to Blacks); they'd look at you and then reach over and lock their doors. And all because that lady lied."
I guess the bottom line is that we in lily white America need to label people by color so we have something to fear. Something to protect or daughters from. So if you are not pure white you are to be feared and labeled.

Will America’s ever increasing population of mud children change this attitude, I expect not.

Chuckuindy

[millard]

The reason neither side is willing to back down is because race is so closely intertwined with identity. What color or race you or your ancestors are has a lot to do -- for better or worse -- with how we see ourselves and how other people see us. That's why people are always trying to put light-skinned people (like Mariah Carey or Derek Jeter) in a box, because unless they know their race for sure, they don't know how to relate to them. It's as if we can't accept them until they're safely in one box or another.

The major difference between Blacks in the U.S. and "Blacks"/Indio/Moreno (or whatever they want to be called) in the D.R. is the difference between confrontation and avoidance. Blacks in the U.S. have confronted the problem of race on a national and personal level (remember "Black is Beautiful"?) People in the DR avoid racial problems and tend to deny their existence, even though its plain as day to visitors from the U.S.

I remember clearly on one of my first visits to the DR how a fellow the color of Pena Gomez grew visibly upset when I referred to him as Black. He actually took out his cedula to prove to me that he was "Indio." That happened in the U.S. a lot up until the '50s when some Blacks tried "passing" for White. (Though I doubt this fellow had a prayer). It's much less likely to happen today.

One more thing, while he was in power Trujillo formally declared Dominicans to be "constitutionally White." That's the polar opposite of "Black is Beautiful."

[Criss Colon]

Guess I was wrong on both counts!!
Soooooooooooo,As I tell all the dominicans I meet who consider themselves to be,"Morenos", "Indios","Claros","Rubios" and even "Blancos", you step off the plane at "JFK",you are a "Spic" at best,and a "Nigger" at least!

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC CCCCCCC

There is no "Mixed race!
Once Pure White Blood is tainted,it is just that,tainted,Black! It can no longer BE Pure WHITE!
Very Simple!
Next question about the UNITED STATES please.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Criss Colon

Guess I was wrong on both counts!!
Soooooooooooo,As I tell all the dominicans I meet who consider themselves to be,"Morenos", "Indios","Claros","Rubios" and even "Blancos", you step off the plane at "JFK",you are a "Spic" at best,and a "Nigger" at least!

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC CCCCCCC

There is no "Mixed race!
Once Pure White Blood is tainted,it is just that,tainted,Black! It can no longer BE Pure WHITE!
Very Simple!
Next question about the UNITED STATES please.

Wow,

and what about stepping off Fiumicino international? (Italy)

Heathrow International? (Britain)

Barajas International? (Spain)

Benito Gonzales International? (Mexico)

Jose Marti International? (Cuba)

El Dorado International? (Colombia)

Suddenly, you're mixed and look, this is around the world, not the US where only a minority 5% of the world's population lives.

Majority rules I suppose (that's what Americans constantly tell me), as such, the 95% of the world's 6 billion people that don't believe in the American system of race classifications are right by nature of their majority status.

[Criss Colon]

"He Who Has The Most "TOYS" Wins"!


"USA!>>>USA!>>>USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!