Gaga Music, Haitian influence, Dominican acceptance, and Chiri's blog!

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Hehe, I think Nal has put a 'fucu' on my blog.

It's having an unusually quiet day, even for a weekend.

Oh oh,

Maybe I should call the brujo to fix this? Perhaps there is a botanica open right now?!

-NAL

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Lesley D

Just an fyi this is the second time I am seeing this comment in this thread about salsa being from Cuba. Being the music fan and connoisseur that I am of all tropical rhythms I feel it is necessary to clarify this point. Salsa is NOT from Cuba. Salsa originated in New York, which began when Cuban musicians started to leave Cuba in the 1950’s. They used el son cubano as a base and changed and enhanced the rhythms with different instruments like el trombón being one of them to create what we know today as salsa. The dissemination of salsa music in New York is credited to Puerto Ricans and the original Fania All Stars are the ones who put salsa on the map. Most of the members at the time were Puerto Ricans or of Puerto Rican descent such as Willie Colon, Hector Lavoe and other members included Celia Cruz and I believe Johnny Pacheco (I will have to verify this).

El son cubano still retains its distinction as a genre. Groups and artists like Issac Delgado, Adalberto Alvarez, Paulito F.G y su elite, Albita Rodriguez etc. are true representatives of Cuban son not to be confused with salsa.

BTW- I am in Panama right now and last night I went dancing and you should have seen how these Panamanians dance to Haitian music. I was so proud. Here in Panama all afroantillano rhythms are enjoyed by Panamanians.


LDG.

LDG,

Thanks for the clarification.

In any case, in Honduras Dominican bachatas are extremely popular, supposedly it has become one of the prefered genre there.

I wonder how many Dominicans live in Honduras? Hmm... maybe its globalization, see its not all gloom and doom!

-NAL

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Quisqueya

Nals,


Hmmmm what are getting at..exactly...are you insinuating there isn't an african element that isn't non-haitian in the DR..Were there not africans in cuba & east side of DR as well....this is something very very very complicated..you can't compare cuba with our island..heheheheh...

In Brazil Candomble is of African origin as well as every S. American country that couldn't supress the Africans from practicing their religion...did haitians import these religions to South America as well...hmmmm...Now I must admit there are alot of similarities between the two..Haven't you ever take into consideration t

Quisqueya,

You are insinuating that my message is that all African element in the country is not non-Haitian.

Anyone who reads my posts and actually understands everything, rather than selective words, would see that I am referring to Gaga as Haitian for the reasons I have presented.

Do I need to re-state that African-Catholic syncretism that are in the DR are Dominican, except for those that have not been "dominicanized".

"Dominicanization" is not simply having Dominicans in the act, but identifiable differences that we can clearly say, ah, that's the Dominican version.

How hard is it to read that?

Unless, of course, the person is doing selective reading.

Hey, it happens sometimes, but when those sometimes are often, hmm...

Here, read the post I made on this thread. I refers to your country...
To Port-au-Prince from the North?

And when you are done with that one, read my post in this thread. It's about Africans and there descendants in Latin America...
CNN- Africa in the Americas (Palenque, Colombia)

Sometimes I just wonder what people think of me, then they let me know.... far from the truth.

-NAL

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Mirador

Please don’t ask me for bibliographic references, because my theory hasn’t been published yet. The roots of gaga are not in Africa, but in our own island of Hispaniola. Gaga is derived from an aboriginal ritual, sort of a mock fight between two war parties (of seven to twelve members each), carrying spears, and dressed from ankles to neck in a tight fitting woven cotton covered with dangling colored threads…

I know its an invention of this island.

I have heard this version as well, though there were three "indian" groups on this island (Arawaks in Haiti, Taino in Central Plateu of Haiti and much of DR, and Caribs in eastern DR in what today is Punta Cana-Bavaro).

Those who talk about the native version, almost always point to Arawak indian ritual, which would explain why it would be an import from Haiti, since Haiti has tremendous influence from Arawak indians.

-NAL

[asopao]

Nals

Is my undestanding that the Congos of Villa Mella is direct from the Congo River Delta in Africa. Those same rites are still practiced in that region till this day. Those slaves were already Christians from that area, because it was already christianized due to Portuguese influece. In the booklet that comes with the " roots music" from Bayahonda, it doesn't mention anything about " Haitian origin" in Congos of V.M.

Concerning Palos music, like the one sung by Enerolisa Reyes, that is definately Vudu. There are two theories on how vudu got into DR. One is straight from Africa in pre-haitian period, or from Haiti with the occupation. My believe is that vudu has been DR way before the French even settled on the West side. It makes alot more sense. Africans were here first.

In the songs there are alot of references to " Papa Candelo" , this is one " lua" or spiritit borrowed from Haitian vudu. Also they mention " Ana isa", I believe this is native from DR. Also, palos, that type of heavy drumming is peculiar to DR, not Haiti. Vudu is from Ewe and Fon tribes in what is now Togo is Africa, so it wasn't an invention from Hispaniola.

[Mirador]

Originally Posted by asopao

Nals

Is my undestanding that the Congos of Villa Mella is direct from the Congo River Delta in Africa. Those same rites are still practiced in that region till this day. Those slaves were already Christians from that area, because it was already christianized due to Portuguese influece. In the booklet that comes with the " roots music" from Bayahonda, it doesn't mention anything about " Haitian origin" in Congos of V.M.

Concerning Palos music, like the one sung by Enerolisa Reyes, that is definately Vudu. There are two theories on how vudu got into DR. One is straight from Africa in pre-haitian period, or from Haiti with the occupation. My believe is that vudu has been DR way before the French even settled on the West side. It makes alot more sense. Africans were here first.

In the songs there are alot of references to " Papa Candelo" , this is one " lua" or spiritit borrowed from Haitian vudu. Also they mention " Ana isa", I believe this is native from DR. Also, palos, that type of heavy drumming is peculiar to DR, not Haiti. Vudu is from Ewe and Fon tribes in what is now Togo is Africa, so it wasn't an invention from Hispaniola.

My sister-in-law just had a baby, and she named her 'Albania'. The fact that the child's name is Albania, doesn't make her 'Albanian'. During the first and second decade of the 20th century, the Eastern part of the DR was blessed by the arrival of people originating from the West Indies. They spoke English and their skin color was dark. For simplicity they called themselves the 'coconut-colored' folk, then just 'coco-colored', which was then interpreted by the general population as the 'cocolos'. Names are just names. The fact that a community of people locally known as 'Congos' (which happens to be the current popular non-derogatory denomination for Haitian rural laborers in the South) perform and maintain an artistic expression such as a dance, does not imply in any way that the particular cultural expression originated in the Congo River Delta in Africa. Bayahonda is a musical group, they are not ethnologists. Actually, there are no ethnologists in the DR, at least none that have delved into the arcane field of ethnomusicology, anthropological studies of dance, and related specialties. All ethnography regarding Haiti and the DR seems to be contaminated by political expediency, sociological agendas, or just plain bad science. Ethnology is not like sports, where default is determinative...
The use of the term 'vodoun', 'vudu', or 'voodoo' to describe the folk belief system and practices in Haiti and/or the DR is a relatively late arrival. There are significant differences in the rites practiced in the Caribbean and those in the Niger and Zaire river deltas....

[asopao]

Names are just names. The fact that a community of people locally known as 'Congos' (which happens to be the current popular non-derogatory denomination for Haitian rural laborers in the South) perform and maintain an artistic expression such as a dance, does not imply in any way that the particular cultural expression originated in the Congo River Delta in Africa. Bayahonda is a musical group, they are not ethnologists. Actually, there are no ethnologists in the DR, at least none that have delved into the arcane field of ethnomusicology, anthropological studies of dance, and related specialties.

" Bayahonda" is not the one saying that their ancestry is from Congo Delta, it is the anthropoogists that say so. They just quoted what they say. No anthropologist/ethnologists in DR??? how about Fradique Lizardo, Bernardo Vega too?

They worship " Espiritu Santo" the same over there in Congo. So you say is just some " coincedence"??

Originally Posted by Mirador

All ethnography regarding Haiti and the DR seems to be contaminated by political expediency, sociological agendas, or just plain bad science. Ethnology is not like sports, where default is determinative...
The use of the term 'vodoun', 'vudu', or 'voodoo' to describe the folk belief system and practices in Haiti and/or the DR is a relatively late arrival. There are significant differences in the rites practiced in the Caribbean and those in the Niger and Zaire river deltas....

People didn't really take time to study these Africanist traditions before, due to Trujillo's anti-africanist attitudes, not to mention that he could have you killed for doing so.

Fradique Lizardo has dedicated his life to that, going deep into the campos studying dances, songs, weeding out all the political bs. You have to give credit to the man.

[Mirador]

" Bayahonda" is not the one saying that their ancestry is from Congo Delta, it is the anthropoogists that say so. They just quoted what they say. No anthropologist/ethnologists in DR??? how about Fradique Lizardo, Bernardo Vega too?

What antropologists? My good friend Roldán of Bayahonda is an excelent musician and has the equivalent of a BA in sociology from the UASD. And my excelent friend Lizardo, of obvious white European stock, and who goes around ridiculously disguised as a West African tribal chieftain (good promotional gimmick), used to introduce himself as a 'folklorist' until he got the equivalent of a BA in sociology from the UASD. And my good friend Bernardo's only academic degree is in economics, and all he claims to be is a historian, not an ethnologist.

They worship " Espiritu Santo" the same over there in Congo. So you say is just some " coincedence"??

Of course they do, the 'Holy Spirit' is worshiped everywhere, in every continent. No coincidence here. The fact that the 'Congos' worship the 'Espiritu Santo' don't mean they got it from Africa.

People didn't really take time to study these Africanist traditions before, due to Trujillo's anti-africanist attitudes, not to mention that he could have you killed for doing so.

Sorry excuse!

Fradique Lizardo has dedicated his life to that, going deep into the campos studying dances, songs, weeding out all the political bs. You have to give credit to the man.

Sorry to say, but Fradique has studied nothing. You can go deep into the campos and watch all the gagas, and listen to all the salves you want, during the equivalent of nine lifetimes, and it don't mean you're the wiser for it. Weeding all the political bs.? How can you be so sure. Credit for what? he's made himself a living by bull****ting anyone naive enough to fall for his jargon.

[asopao]

You know them personally? wow.

So tell me, oh wise one, what is the origins of the cofadria del espiritu santo of Congos of Villa Mella then?

If there are no ethnologists in DR, then everything is bs then. I guess you're the one that know best.


Having a degree or a Phd. doesn't really grant you " authencitity, or " true scholarship". Check out Dian Fossey, the woman that went to study the gorillas in Congo. She didn't have jack, nevertheless she was entrusted by " reputed zoologists" for her findings on gorillas. After all, she was living in the jungle with them. No amount of books read by some geek back in the U.S who never has left the cement jungle is going to match Fossey's first hand experience, even if she doesn't have a degree.

Same with some boot Lieutenant, who just got a degree in basket weaving, but doesn't know the real deal about combat or military than some senior enlisted soldier or Marine. The snco's are the ones who really run the show in that case.

[Quisqueya]

Excellent points Asopao and I wanted to point out something very important to us. These gaga and rara are mysterious to us natives of hispaniola. I can recall hearing rara bands chanting and worshiping the spirits and we were told by the elders if we dared look at them our eyes would swell and they would eat us alive..LOL Thus, children were petrified of these group of people..

Vaudou, I believe, was and still is a religion found in the Dahomey Empire present day Benin. During that time, I believe, Nigeria(Yoruba, Ibo), Congo, Niger, Benin were part of that Empire..Thus, all of these countries were influenced on way or another by this mysterious religion vaudou.


Ok, to make this short, we all know the slaves were from these regions and obviously brought their customs, different dialects, religion blah blah blah...Now the first thing was to strip the identity of the slave by surpressing his religion and catholocising the "congo/bossal" in order to control his mind. Thus, it was prohibited to practise their religion and death was the punishment if any slave were caught disobeying this law..Now, the africans disguised their religion within christianity..that's way you can see the virgen mary lit up but the difference is they are worshipping Erzulie, etc etc..I wish I knew more about this but I was raised a christian and vaudou/rara or anything african was considered savage or uncivilised...

That's why we must thank these foreignors for re-surfacing these cultures within the island that we(dominicans and haitians) prefer to keep in the farthest end of the closet..Thank you Chiri, for exploring and sharing...