Gaga Music, Haitian influence, Dominican acceptance, and Chiri's blog!

[Mirador]

You know them personally? wow.

Yes, and so can you. If you want, I can give you their addresses, for you to visit. But please don’t say anything stupid, they’ll close the door on you ;-)

If there are no ethnologists in DR, then everything is bs then. I guess you're the one that know best.

It is very unfortunate, there are no ethnologist in the DR, but this is not surprising... And I know nothing, and an old saying comes to mind “In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king” ;-)

Having a degree or a Phd. doesn't really grant you " authencitity, or " true scholarship". Check out Dian Fossey, the woman that went to study the gorillas in Congo. She didn't have jack, nevertheless she was entrusted by " reputed zoologists" for her findings on gorillas. After all, she was living in the jungle with them. No amount of books read by some geek back in the U.S who never has left the cement jungle is going to match Fossey's first hand experience, even if she doesn't have a degree.

You’ve stated it very clearly, no amount of book reading substitutes for true scholarship, even a charlatan zoologist would recognize the unmistakable value of Dian Fossey’s research. She put her life on the line in an effort to discover the nuances of gorilla behavior and communication, in their own unadulterated environment, and only available to her once the gorillas accepted her as their kind.

[Mirador]

Originally Posted by Quisqueya

Excellent points Asopao and I wanted to point out something very important to us. ... That's why we must thank these foreignors for re-surfacing these cultures within the island that we(dominicans and haitians) prefer to keep in the farthest end of the closet..Thank you Chiri, for exploring and sharing...

Chiri has explored nothing, all she has done is cackle what has been previously said about gaga or Los Congos del Espíritu Santo. She is like those zoologists that study gorillas in cages, in a zoo. She is content to say that gaga is African, and goes no further. That is as useless as trying to answer, “what came first, the chicken or the egg”. Chiri has witnessed an entertainment number, a circus sideshow, a carnival masquerade that goes by the name gaga and calls it African. If I was a genuine African American I would feel ashamed to claim this senseless gig as the product of my ancestors.
Besides the origin issue, aren’t you curious, don’t you want to know what it really means? Take note that the tradition has been maintained by a guild, a secret lodge-like organization, during several generations. What's the purpose of it?, if it’s not to entertain tourist or just have fun? What is the esoteric significance of the member's formal dance and music? What are the members trying to communicate? Are you willing to join a gaga guild? Maybe even become one of their hierarchical officers? (they have a military-like chain of command).
Would you like to join the gorillas in the wild? Do you want to become an ethnologist? I do.

[Quisqueya]

Mirador,

I give Chiri credit because she brought it to our attention..I never heard her claim she was an expert on gaga topics. She stated her opinions and brought this mysterious religion to surface...We all know of gaga/ rara as haitians and dominicans but we wouldn't waste our time going to one of this events. And you proved that by saying its entertainment..and if it's entertainment, I dont see why this should discredit the mysteries behind this religion..Sure, people are going to use this for the sole purpose of making money off some tourist..claro!!!, but as long as they aren't fabricating anything..I don't see the problem.

Now, one of your previous post you mention someone of being from european stock that practice this religion as if he can't participate because of his obvious physical background or ancestry..I dont see the logic behind your comment..

Oh, one more thing why would african american feel ashame? Africans Americans are clueless to gaga/rara and are just another fellow tourist enjoying the authencity of DR. It's funny you said that..Africans Americans have no relation what so ever with rara/gaga..They are along with whites mystified by these african/taino religions in a 3rd world country....

[Chirimoya]

Mirador, indeed, I am merely an observer, I make no claims to be any more than that. I lost track of the whereabouts of my anthropology degree certificate a long time ago. I don't usually make a habit of waving it about but I can't resist mentioning it here.

Most of my information about Gaga and the other areas mentioned comes from Dominicans, including Roldan who is also a personal friend. I wasn't going to wave that about, either, but seeing as he's been brought into this, again - how can I resist?

I welcomed your participation in this thread. Your point of view, as always, is interesting, and as the observer I am, I have been prepared to listen and learn. I am open to hearing other angles on the subject, but maintain my main stance, what I wrote in the blog entry about the absurdity of the hostility to Gaga and santeria from the likes of the Cardinal.

The best part is, it appears you haven't even read the blog, so what you say I 'cackle' about is pure assumption.

I state in the blog that santeria, like the Brazilian candomble, is a blend of African and Catholic belief.

I say that Gaga is an element of Dominican life.

I wrote that the Cardinal appears to feel threatened by any cultural expression that isn't purely Catholic and Hispanic.

So, it wasn't even something I said, just something you assumed I said that made you lose your ability to be courteous and respectful.

[Mirador]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Mirador, indeed, I am merely an observer, I make no claims to be any more than that. I lost track of the whereabouts of my anthropology degree certificate a long time ago. I don't usually make a habit of waving it about but I can't resist mentioning it here.

Most of my information about Gaga and the other areas mentioned comes from Dominicans, including Roldan who is also a personal friend. I wasn't going to wave that about, either, but seeing as he's been brought into this, again - how can I resist?

I welcomed your participation in this thread. Your point of view, as always, is interesting, and as the observer I am, I have been prepared to listen and learn. I am open to hearing other angles on the subject, but maintain my main stance, what I wrote in the blog entry about the absurdity of the hostility to Gaga and santeria from the likes of the Cardinal.

The best part is, it appears you haven't even read the blog, so what you say I 'cackle' about is pure assumption.

I state in the blog that santeria, like the Brazilian candomble, is a blend of African and Catholic belief.

I say that Gaga is an element of Dominican life.

I wrote that the Cardinal appears to feel threatened by any cultural expression that isn't purely Catholic and Hispanic.

So, it wasn't even something I said, just something you assumed I said that made you lose your ability to be courteous and respectful.

Chiri, I'm so sorry. It was not my intention... how can I make amends?
You are right, I didn't read your blog, I just went by what others said, I commited the same sin of those I criticized, for reading about gaga and not experiencing first hand. Sometimes language is irresistable, I can't help myself with new words, or those I have never used, like 'cackle'. I just thought it was cute, it never occured to me that you'd be offended.
I share your same feelings regarding the Cardinal. In a recent social gathering, I met some of the Cardinal's fans, and they tried to convince me that he should be nominated for beatification. I gave them a piece of my mind, I told them he was the personification of the Devil himself. They all got up and left.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Mirador

I told them he was the personification of the Devil himself. They all got up and left.

Well....

Telling the friends of anybody that their friend is the personification of the devil is not going to go very well....

Next time, just nod and smile. It makes wonders!

-NAL

[asopao]

Ok, mirador , do you know Carlos Hernandez ?


Check him out here: http://www.melassa.org/gallerycomunidad.htm

The Bayahonda CD booklet mentions him as an " anthropologist" too in the description of the Congos of V.M. Here is exactly how it is:
http://www.artelatino.com/bayahonda/congo.htm

Can you give legitimacy to " anthropologist" the same as " ethnologist" ??

btw, I bought that cd when it first came out, great music.

[Mirador]

Ok, mirador , do you know Carlos Hernandez ?

Can't say I know him personally, but I've bumped into him a few times down at the Museum (Museo del Hombre Dominicano) of which he's the current director. Academically, he's from the same school of Dagoberto Tejeda, pushing the African 'Negritud' identity agenda. His only published work is a sociological study on the Mata Los Indios community where the Cofradía de los Congos del Espíritu Santo resides.

Check him out here: [urlhttp://www.melassa.org/gallerycomunidad.htm[/url]

After reading the link, I'm appalled that the Dominican sociologist Carlos Hernández is associated with an organization (Melassa.org) that makes the following stupid and outlandish statement: "...The main issues and challenges to Afro-Dominican women in the community of Mata Los Indios are poverty, isolation and marginalization born in a long history of racism, beginning with the poor integration of women and darker skinned Dominicans into national projects and followed by a pre-conceived notion of a Dominican national identity based on Catholicism, whiteness, and Hispanic attributes. All this culminated in the 1937 massacre of Haitians at the Dominican-Haitian border during the dictatorship of Trujillo. This deep racism is daily reflected in the lack of basic resources such as water and electricity in the poorer, Afro-Dominican sectors of the population, in the high number of school overage and desertion as well as teenage pregnancy, and in the few job alternatives available to darker skinned girls and women in rural areas."

The Bayahonda CD booklet mentions him as an " anthropologist" too in the description of the Congos of V.M. Here is exactly how it is:
http://www.artelatino.com/bayahonda/congo.htm

It's a promotional brochure, designed to sell... They can say diddlysquat and have their walls papered with diplomas, and it can still be bad science and scholarship.

Can you give legitimacy to " anthropologist" the same as " ethnologist" ??

No!

btw, I bought that cd when it first came out, great music.

I also bought it, love it!


Factoid.- Are you aware that the best way to destroy a flower is by focusing inappropriate and excessive attention to it. Well, that's exactly what's currently happening with the Cofradía de los Congos del Espíritu Santo. Read how this priceless tradition is being destroyed: ClaveDigital

[Chirimoya]

Originally Posted by Mirador

Chiri, I'm so sorry. It was not my intention... how can I make amends?
You are right, I didn't read your blog, I just went by what others said, I commited the same sin of those I criticized, for reading about gaga and not experiencing first hand. Sometimes language is irresistable, I can't help myself with new words, or those I have never used, like 'cackle'. I just thought it was cute, it never occured to me that you'd be offended.

Your gracious apology is accepted. Have you read the blog entry now? The main thing is that it has inspired debate.

Now, where's Tordok when we need him?

Originally Posted by Mirador

I share your same feelings regarding the Cardinal. In a recent social gathering, I met some of the Cardinal's fans, and they tried to convince me that he should be nominated for beatification. I gave them a piece of my mind, I told them he was the personification of the Devil himself. They all got up and left.

Originally Posted by Nal0whs

Well....

Telling the friends of anybody that their friend is the personification of the devil is not going to go very well....

Next time, just nod and smile. It makes wonders!

Mirador may not be the world's greatest diplomat, as he's shown us in the course of this debate, but one of the problems with the cardinal is that too many people just "nod and smile" and let him get on with his outdated bigotry.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Mirador may not be the world's greatest diplomat, as he's shown us in the course of this debate, but one of the problems with the cardinal is that too many people just "nod and smile" and let him get on with his outdated bigotry.

Yes yes and how many people (aside from the religious fanatics) take the cardinal seriously on these accounts?

Remember when he suggested the closing of all bars and nightclubs in the colonial zone! Have that been adhered to? He he he...

It's better to keep the cardinal on a tangent rather than having him condemn the country in one way or another, thus nod and smile!

-NAL