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  #101  
Old 09-11-2006, 10:08 PM
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Chris Level 3 Chris Level 3 (163)
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Sweet Rick! I have some papers for you

Bilijou and others put forward passionate debate that this country and its people needed closure (or a recognition of things gone wrong/or some truth-telling), in terms of the past actions of Balaguer. This is against the backdrop of the current situation, which is that Balaguer is now almost being deified as a great leader of the past?

The discussion was how this closure could be created or obtained? It is clear that there are sharp divisions in amongst the population about this. Speaking to one person alone could solicit great praise, and in the same sentence, great fear of Balaguer. This to me, was the fascinating part of the discussion. The dicotomy - admiration on the one side, and fear and hatred on the other.
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  #102  
Old 09-12-2006, 08:48 PM
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Tordok Level 1 (10)
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Wow, I've missed quite a bit in just a couple of days away from the forum....so let me see if I can catch up a bit;

Chiri,
Nice job on your blog as always I truly enjoy your fine act -and rare ability- of balancing honesty with sensibility. An accomplished diplomat as far as I'm concerned.

Nals,
My opinion is largely unfavorable towards "el Dostol", but as I mentioned before, I do find that it could have been worse. I think others focus on the fact that it could've been better. I think we all agree that it should've been better.

Rick,
Even if you're a moderator, you are entitled to your views. Keep doing what you're doing. Viva the American Seibano!!!

Bilijou,
I -really- see your "menospreciar lo dominicano" point and I was indeed purposefully oversimplifying my response for economy of words reasons, not because I am myself menospreciando your output on this issue. So, I do understand your point and I prefer to leave it at that. BTW, I am Dominican, although most people, including myself do consider me to be an atypical one for reasons not worth getting into here. Suffice it to say that I have very valid claims to being Dominicano; and that your deracialization thesis is in many regards valid as well, just not appropriate for this forum as both Rick and Robert have pointed out. Rick's idea of your own blog makes sense to me.

regards to all,
-Tordok
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  #103  
Old 09-12-2006, 09:06 PM
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Rick Snyder Level 1 (10)
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Tordok I don't wish to to take it the wrong way but I sure have missed you.

Rick

Last edited by Rick Snyder; 09-12-2006 at 09:07 PM. Reason: grammar
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  #104  
Old 09-14-2006, 11:39 AM
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Tordok Level 1 (10)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Snyder View Post
Tordok I don't wish to to take it the wrong way but I sure have missed you.

Rick
Thank you. I also miss having more time to engage in these kind of discussions. I'll try to stay tuned and participate more, when deemed appropriate.
bests,
- Tordok
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  #105  
Old 09-17-2006, 11:09 PM
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bilijou Level 1 (10)
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I see this thread burned itself out.
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  #106  
Old 09-17-2006, 11:19 PM
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Rick Snyder Level 1 (10)
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Is that a request for closure of the thread?
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  #107  
Old 09-25-2006, 03:40 PM
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bilijou Level 1 (10)
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Today is the 43rd aniversary of the coup that changed the course of our history.

SANTO DOMINGO.- El golpe de Estad al gobierno de Juan Bosch, el 25 de septiembre de 1963, cercenó uno de los períodos democráticos más auténticos de la historia dominicana y desencadenó los acontecimientos más decisivos del pasado siglo.

El historiador Euclides Gutiérrez Félix calificó de inigualable el gobierno de apenas siete meses, que con su programa pretendía convertir al país en uno de los más avanzados de América Latina, mientras que Tony Raful dijo que el golpe fue el acto sedicioso más denunciado por las fuerzas vivas de la nación. “Desde entonces, hay una deuda social acumulada que mantiene en crisis la gobernabilidad”, apuntó.

Después de 43 años, el país sigue sin un plan nacional de realizaciones sociales y económicas, como lo concibió el derrocado presidente Bosch, fundador de los dos partidos políticos que en los tres últimos períodos han gobernado los destinos de la nación.

Sin mecanismos claros y eficientes para aplicar la Ley y la Justicia, sin instituciones fuertes que garanticen la verdadera gobernabilidad para todos y la corrupción en distintos niveles sociales y políticos, la democracia dominicana mantiene un camino incierto, lleno de grandes lagunas y dificultades.

Son diversos los enfoques sobre los hechos que desencadenaron el golpe de 1963, pero la mayoría está de acuerdo en que desde entonces el país ha vivido más de cuatro décadas de degradación de los valores éticos y la institucionalidad democrática.

Con la interrupción de la administración de Bosch, desapareció la Constitución que la sostenía, considerada la más avanzada en la historia dominicana. Bosch tomó importantes medidas económicas que permitieron pagar la deuda externa, sanear la economía e iniciar un importante programa de construcciones públicas.

Dos años después, en abril de 1965, estalló un levantamiento armado, de civiles y militares, por el retorno de Bosch a la Presidencia. Pocos días después, Estados Unidos ocupó militarmente la República Dominicana y el conflicto se transformó en guerra patria.

Bosch fue el dominicano más influyente del último medio siglo, no sólo por sus destacadísimos aportes a la historia, la literatura y la sociología del Caribe, sino los acontecimientos políticos que provocó, su decencia, su honestidad intelectual y su voluntad de renovación. Acaso el legado más valioso que deja a los latinoamericanos que hoy siguen pensando en un mundo alternativo como necesario y posible.

(Source)
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  #108  
Old 09-25-2006, 04:16 PM
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bilijou Level 1 (10)
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It is sad that this thread has taken the way of a boardmember who self-admittedly aims for "inconsistency" for the sake of "neutrality" and "professionalism".

Many here are asking for the "two sides of the coin". If history is indeed intended to keep us from "stumbling over the same rocks", is the "two sides of the coin" the most effective way to do this? Is it the best way to learn a lesson?

I don't ask for us to ignore facts, but to EVALUATE them (plus vs. minuses). Can the number of trees saved by Balaguer's environmental policies be equated with the number of lives lost by his repression machine?

An overall evaluation has to be OBJECTIVE, and this is the format in which it is presented to Dominican kids in history books.
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  #109  
Old 09-25-2006, 04:48 PM
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Rick Snyder Level 1 (10)
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Bilijou as education or the lack thereof in this country is the one thing that consumes my interest more then anything else your statement, "and this is the format in which it is presented to Dominican kids in history books", needs further explanation.

Are you saying that Dominican history books that are used in the school system here give an objective view of history?

Just looking for clarification.

Rick
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  #110  
Old 09-25-2006, 06:58 PM
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Ogre of the Caribbean Level 1 (26)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilijou View Post
It is sad that this thread has taken the way of a boardmember who self-admittedly aims for "inconsistency" for the sake of "neutrality" and "professionalism".

Many here are asking for the "two sides of the coin". If history is indeed intended to keep us from "stumbling over the same rocks", is the "two sides of the coin" the most effective way to do this? Is it the best way to learn a lesson?

I don't ask for us to ignore facts, but to EVALUATE them (plus vs. minuses). Can the number of trees saved by Balaguer's environmental policies be equated with the number of lives lost by his repression machine?

An overall evaluation has to be OBJECTIVE, and this is the format in which it is presented to Dominican kids in history books.
I believe history has to be objective as well. What do you mean by EVALUATE history? That sounds like a group putting their own stamp on things. That does not sound objective.

The PRD murdered political opponents too, it was not entirely innocent. If the PRD had managed to win an election in the early 1970's, perhaps they would have moved to avenge the murders committed by Balaguer, we will never know for sure. I liked Juan Bosch. I did not support the coup that ousted him from power. But I do not believe that the organization around him was perfect.

History should be as dispassionate as humanly possible. I don't see that in some of the posts written on this board. Whether some members like it or not, Balaguer still has a lot of supporters in the DR. There opinions should be taken into consideration. Otherwise your heading for trouble.
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