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  #101  
Old 11-23-2006, 01:34 AM
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A.Hidalgo Level 2 (84)
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Ok members lets get back on track (sort of)

The Kid.I have been reading on the former Senior Vice President and Chief Economist of the WB Joseph Stiglitz and it has been interesting reading. In the following link he talks about corruption not just in the poor borrowing countries but corruption coming from the lending western nations. All that I'm trying to say here is that corruption is not a phenomenon of some poor third world country, but its also perpetrated by first world countries and their institutions.


Corrupting the Fight Against Corruption - Social and Economic Policy - Global Policy Forum

Last edited by A.Hidalgo; 11-23-2006 at 01:36 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #102  
Old 11-23-2006, 01:41 AM
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Rick Snyder Level 1 (10)
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And once again I will tell you the same thing in essence that I told the others. WHO in this thread said that corruption is only a phenomenon of some poor third world country and that it isn't also perpretrated by first world countries and their institutions" ????? Who??? Nobody. You are trying to argue a mute point.
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  #103  
Old 11-23-2006, 02:00 AM
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mondongo Level 1 (20)
Default I love brief answers!! :)

Rick, So then you agree that the IMF/WB and their many bank friends will lend money to the DR...knowing full well that a signifiacant portion of that money will end up in corrupted pockets?
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  #104  
Old 11-23-2006, 10:22 AM
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cobraboy Level 2 cobraboy Level 2 (107)
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Maybe Hugo Chavez, a great humanitarian, can step up and lend the DR the money it needs before the prior loans go into default. Then the DR would need neither the WB or IMF.

What alternatives does the DR have re: debt?
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  #105  
Old 11-23-2006, 10:59 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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shadInToronto Level 1 (10)
Exclamation No charity case !!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Snyder View Post
.... IF you should decide to borrow from those entities you will in fact owe them money. IF you decide to pay them back or not is up to you as the borrower. Their purpose in life is to lend money out and make interest on their investment.

Rick
The whole truth and nothing but .... "no holes in that truth". They are not in the charity business (btw, I've noticed most folks in charitable organizations who claim to be altruistic do live much much better than those they claim to help, but that's another thread) and their ultimate goal is to be profitable. As is the case with any lender, they want to be repaid and in the event of a defaut have access to assets that can be sold to recover their capital. It's all about the bottom line ... and that's the bottom line
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  #106  
Old 11-23-2006, 12:25 PM
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Lambada Level 3 Lambada Level 3 Lambada Level 3 (223)
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This isn't a field I know anything about so please bear with my ignorance. But didn't Argentina and Brazil pay off the IMF ahead of time? If so, they must have had a reason. I get the distinct feel that IMF involvement over values a currency or at any rate can be used to prop up a currency to make it appear stronger than it is. Is that a fair assessment? My hunch is that Argentina is now doing OK because it imposed a fairly restrictive monetary policy and price agreements negotiated between Government, producers and retailers in order to reduce unemployment and create growth. 'Market friendly' policies, like DR-CAFTA, would seem to fly in the face of this.

I often wonder if the concerns expressed by the western world are more about political stability but they express them in terms of economic stabilty? But, like I said, I am not knowledgeable on this subject so I'm here to learn.
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  #107  
Old 11-23-2006, 02:43 PM
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Alyonka Level 1 (30)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by something_of_the_night View Post
I wonder if any of the IMF/WB defenders bothered to read Nals's post in which he talked about Joseph Stiglitz. I doubt it. Did you look up Stiglitz, at least? Lo dudo.

And this is part of what mondongo is saying: some of these guys might be Dominicans, but they do their homework. Yesterday, cobraboy talked about credentials in another thread. Well, if you've been reading mondongo for as long as I have, then you, too, would listen. Their arguments are not accompanied by amateurish gibberish like the crap I type, or the high-octane, patriotic my-country-can't-do-no-wrong's from some of you.
I do respect what you guys and mondongo say. It does look like he knows what he is talking about. I beleive that US can do a lot through the IMF and WB and uses nations with poor undeveloped economies to spread US policies around the world, just the same way as USSR used to do. There is nothing new about it. But, those nations who go for it were not forced to accept the money. And if they accept the money - they could try to use it smarter so that they don't have get that much in debt.
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  #108  
Old 11-23-2006, 03:27 PM
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Rick Snyder Level 1 (10)
Default Again

It is apparent that a number of you really don’t grasp the situation in its entirety within the world. This can be accomplished by searching out that which may interest you. If you don’t really have an interest then you can benefit from that which is placed on this board or you can ignore it.

The problem that some of you face is that the information being passed on is supposed to be related to that which deals with the DR. You can try to defend the position that the WB, Paris Club and IMF do relate to the DR but that is only true if you mention the DR in conjunction to your posting about the lending institutions.

There are times when moderators will allow discussions to travel off course but please understand that the reality of the situation is that they are not supposed to allow that to happen. Needless to say I am guilty of this as can be evidenced by this thread. You may say that this spill over into other areas is a good teaching tool and that is a true statement but the purpose of this board is to serve as a teaching tool about the Dominican Republic and not for other things.

Having said all that I will now post some information and links that go contrary to the purpose of this board and hope that the big red button in the sky doesn’t fall down upon us.

The IMF just like all businesses and nations has problems. Here is a recent link that explains that they too have money problems. If you read that article and pay attention to that which is being said you will discover that the IMF, though having a lot of American members is NOT the US government. The US does in fact have veto power but the IMF IS NOT THE US. By all indications the IMF would be in a much better position overall if in fact they were to sell some gold. The problem lies in the speculation that the selling of this gold would reduce the price of said metal and that would be contrary to that which the US wants, see this article, and therefore the reason for their going against such a sale. Kind of reminds me of the old adage “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”. It must be remembered that the reason the IMF was formed started back in the crash of wall street and the depression. As the US was the big kid on the block and there was a consensus from other nations that something had to be done to help those nations financially the US placed those rules which gave them the advantage. All of you should understand the reasoning behind this decision on the part of the US. You can sit back and rant and scream all you want about it not being fair but that is the way it was set up back in 1944 and they still have the controlling power.

This article is interesting in the fact that you will notice that Zimbabwe was told it needs to change its policies by the IMF but also that when they went to another country separate from the IMF to borrow money that they were told by that country that before they were to lend them money that Zimbabwe would have to change its policies. That statement alone should tell you something and in reality should shut up some of you that are trying to build such a strong case against the workings of any lending institution as they all seem to be of the same mental psychology when it comes to lending money to those that can’t get their act together.

Now let us place all this knowledge that we have and have acquired as it relates to the DR. I am not talking about the workings of the IMF, WB, Paris Club, the South African government or any other entity. I am not talking about dishonesty or corruption within those organizations. I am talking about the Dominican Republic only.

The Dominican Republic, like all countries and organization, is having a hard time with finances and to help overcome these problems they have decided to borrow money to tide them over. The facts in this case are;
1. That they have decided to borrow from the IMF, WB, Paris Club and anyone else that will lend them money.
2. All those organizations attach strings or recommendations to their loans.
3. The DR has a problem or problems that have gotten them into this situation.

All those are facts and can not be disputed and any attempt to do so is waste of time and effort and is mute.

As number 1 is a “gim-me” there is no reason to talk about it other then any future lending that hasn’t happened yet.

Number 2 is also a “gim-me” as those entities are only looking for a way to insure that they have some semblance of a return on their investment which should appear as natural business workings. The fact that the borrower came to them in the first place is a sure indicator that they don’t know how to manage their finances and the reason for requesting a loan. Those lending institutions are no experts on running a country but their experiences have shown that if a country incorporates A, B, C and D there is the possibility that things will become even and will allow the borrower to reap a sufficient profit to run their country and also pay back the lender.

Talking about point number three I’ll offer some links;
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 the speech by Sr Menendez a short way down, 8, 9, 10, 11.

These are just some of that which I am trying to convey to you concerning the situation here in the DR. The reality is that there should be no need to indicate this as I am sure that all of you are aware of the situation here. The very fact that Dominican citizens almost on a daily basis risk and at times lose their lives in an attempt to escape this country in their search for a better and sustainable life should be a testament to the workings in this country that could and should offer so much more to its population.

Rick

The above posted links were not posted as a means to argue the validity of that which was stated but rather as an indicator as to how different people interpret the situation.
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  #109  
Old 11-23-2006, 10:30 PM
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cobraboy Level 2 cobraboy Level 2 (107)
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Rick, "it's America's fault" makes a better sound bite than a loooong list of facts.
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  #110  
Old 11-23-2006, 10:54 PM
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Rick Snyder Level 1 (10)
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Okay I'll yield to the honorably gentleman from, where did you say you're from???????????????

Oh, and happy Thanksgiving to all!!!!
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