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  #1  
Old 11-13-2006, 04:55 PM
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aegap Level 1 (10)
Default Come On, Ride The Train ..

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  #2  
Old 11-13-2006, 05:25 PM
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Texas Bill Level 2 (52)
Default It's what we've said all along

Dominican politicians don't know howto govern!!!
They're too interested in lining their own pockets while they're in office and this Administration is no different than the one it replaced.
All of the politicians seem to have the attitude that the country owes it to them to live in high style while the "peasants eat cake".
This was a typical attitude amoung the French Aristocracy prior to the French Revolution and look what happened to them.
Think History will repeat itself here?
If it does, the DR will go the same way France did with the insuing chaos because the replacing government will be the same.
Stupidity will reign because stupid people will take over with the self-same rhetoric as did the Russian Revolution. You all have seen it advertised on DR1 over the past year or so.
Heaven help us all if that happens.

Texas Bill
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  #3  
Old 11-15-2006, 09:18 PM
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A.Hidalgo Level 1 (36)
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Originally Posted by aegap View Post

The speech by Leonel on tuesday definitely has a connection to the assessment by The Economist article. Got to pay those IMF and World Bank loans. The building of that train system is going to cost dearly and the Dominican population will pay the price.
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  #4  
Old 11-15-2006, 09:29 PM
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gary short Level 1 (10)
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Originally Posted by A.Hidalgo View Post
The speech by Leonel on tuesday definitely has a connection to the assessment by The Economist article. Got to pay those IMF and World Bank loans. The building of that train system is going to cost dearly and the Dominican population will pay the price.
That's the modus operendia of the IMF and world bank......it's frickin shameless........all the a$$holes up top split the loot while Joe Citizen pays the freight into the next next generation......and the project, generally fails.

Last edited by Rick Snyder; 11-16-2006 at 11:22 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-16-2006, 04:48 PM
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Alyonka Level 1 (10)
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Economists at the bank and fund design programs from the best economic research standpoint. They work hard and aim for the best. The programs fail because in a lot of cases the actual situation in the countries is different from what was provided to them in reports and also their knowledge of the field is limited to who they are talking to. They are working on it.
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2006, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Avrora View Post
Economists at the bank and fund design programs from the best economic research standpoint. They work hard and aim for the best. The programs fail because in a lot of cases the actual situation in the countries is different from what was provided to them in reports and also their knowledge of the field is limited to who they are talking to. They are working on it.
This sort of reminds me of Mark Sykes and Mr. Picot during the First World War. They decided what was best for the Middle East.....and look what that got them!!!!

HB
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  #7  
Old 11-17-2006, 01:19 PM
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You are right, there is a huge difference in what it is supposed to happen according to the economic research and prognoses and the reality of each separate country. Corruption and laziness of the authorities plays a huge role in how IMF/WB programs are implemented. It has been known as an issue for a long time and is being worked on consistently.
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  #8  
Old 11-17-2006, 05:37 PM
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NALs Level 2 NALs Level 2 (117)
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Originally Posted by Avrora View Post
You are right, there is a huge difference in what it is supposed to happen according to the economic research and prognoses and the reality of each separate country. Corruption and laziness of the authorities plays a huge role in how IMF/WB programs are implemented. It has been known as an issue for a long time and is being worked on consistently.
The single biggest problem with all proposals concerning economic development that comes from either the IMF or World Bank is that such proposals are not really concerned about the countries that are indebted to them.

Those two institutions (along with the Paris Club) number one goal is to get debtor nations to pay back their loans and interest to their creditors, who often are large private multinational banks such as JP Morgan. The institutions gives those banks an alternative way of forcing debtor nations to pay back their debts, because unlike what is the case with individuals, banks cannot confiscate an entire country if it defaults on its loans!

All of this leads to the "do as we say and not as we did" policy which eminates out of the Washington Consensus to the rest of the world in the form of foreign policy. Because of this, many people around the world have grown skeptic of U.S. foreign policy and particularly skeptic of IMF and World Bank.

The fact of the matter is that there is not a single rich western country that became prosperous by following what the IMF and World Bank suggests is necessary for economic development and prosperity to take place.

It should be no surprise that the IMF/World Bank policies handed out to impoverished developing nations have not worked as planned and those countries are still poor.

The only few countries that have managed to continue developing and gaining prosperity in the third world (ie. Botswana, Chile, etc) were countries that either ignored the "advice" from those institutions or countries which mimic to a certain extent the actual things that lead to prosperity in the first world. In other words, public control of natural resources, elimination or effective exclusion of people with anti-development ideas or cultures, and massive government involvement and subsidies in various sectors to increase the incentive of attracting private capital.

I will end by explaining one thing that perhaps may not rub well with some intelligent DR1ers and that is the case of public control of natural resources. The fact of the matter is this, not a single first world country has its natural resources (ie. precious metals, fossil fuels, etc) under private ownership. Their natural resources are under public ownership and the government issues lincenses to private enterprises who wishes to exploit such resources. Such lincenses are granted on various conditions, among them regulating how the profits are to be maintained in such country and/or how much would belong to the government and/or other conditions which would benefit the local population.

Chile has done something similar by taking control of its copper mines which is still owned by the military/government. The ownership of those mines has helped Chile's government in gaining enough capital in order to execute various public works programs and other social programs which helps the Chilean population, not to mention have enough money to subsidies various sectors in order to increase the incentive for private investments in such sectors.

In the United States, every single natural resource of tremendous value (from petroleum to coal mines) are in effect owned by the U.S. government. The government grants licenses to private enterprises which wishes to exploit them and again, such licenses are granted with certain conditionalities.

With most third world states, that is not the case. Third world states have privatized their natural resources at the request of the IMF and World Bank in order to qualify for loans. Often, such resources have been bought by multinational corporations based in first world countries and those corporations (thanks to IMF suggestion on third world country liberalizing their financial markets) can take all profits out of those developing countries to their bank accounts in the first world nations, such wealth never to be seen in the country from which it was extracted.

That was precisely the case in Bolivia concerning public water which was privatized. The Bechtel corporation based in San Francisco, California actually bought much of the water supply in Bolivia. Once it was privatized, the cost of water in Bolivia skyrocketed to around 300% making clean water unaffordable to most poor Bolivians. Such price hikes were necessary in order for Bechtel to make a profit from water in Bolivia.

What's the problem? Public water in first world nations all belong to the government!!! Who suggested Bolivia to privatize its public water source rather than give licenses while keeping ownership of such source? The IMF Why did Bolivia complied? Because it was a necessary step outlined by the IMF prior to Bolivia being granted a loan.

In the process, many Bolivians have been killed in the protest they have made protesting the high cost of water and the police trying to keep the protest in check, it has spurr anti-American feelings in Bolivia, it has increased the mistrust of the IMF and World Bank in Bolivia, and has partially led to the leftist president they currently have to win the presidential election.

What is one of the things the current president of Bolivia wants to do? Take the public water away from the private sector. What has kept him from doing that? IMF threatning to not give any more loans to Bolivia if it goes ahead and take the water resource away from Bechtel.

All of this occured under the notion of free market, which is not really free because while Economists are giving correct theories of what would occur under a true free market, politicians are altering the theories in order to achieve their political goals in the process screwing with the lives of millions of poor people from around the world.

-NALs
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  #9  
Old 11-17-2006, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by NALs View Post
All of this occured under the notion of free market, which is not really free because while Economists are giving correct theories of what would occur under a true free market, politicians are altering the theories in order to achieve their political goals in the process screwing with the lives of millions of poor people from around the world.
-NALs
Corruption is the main problem everywhere in the world. There were a lot of discussions if IMF/WB should actually exist and if they do any good and also protests against these organizations. But, really, is not the IMF and WB at fault that political structures and governments of countries are corrupted.
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  #10  
Old 11-17-2006, 06:36 PM
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NALs Level 2 NALs Level 2 (117)
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Originally Posted by Avrora View Post
Corruption is the main problem everywhere in the world. There were a lot of discussions if IMF/WB should actually exist and if they do any good and also protests against these organizations. But, really, is not the IMF and WB at fault that political structures and governments of countries are corrupted.
I do agree with you that corruption is the main culprit, albeit I am also referring to corruption in Washington in addition to the one in developing nations.

It's also true that the IMF/World Bank are heavily influenced by U.S. political motives when it comes to the rest of the world, particularly the third world.

IMF and World Bank are used as political tools by US politicians to gain indirect influence in developing countries. Remember, 51% of the World Bank is practically owned by the US Treasury, which basically means that anyone dealing with the World Bank is in effect dealing with the US government.

I will reiterate, economic theory is correct. Free trade works! The problem is not the economists or the theories, the problem are the politicians who use such theories and modify them to their advantage. Politicians (all of them) have one goal and that is the desire to control power and they will use whatever tools they can to gain the power they want.

And it's not just the World Bank, the IMF was rocked when Joseph Stiglitz, who was the Vice President of that institution for many years, resigned in protest of the banks' policies towards third world countries. He is a nobel prize winner, he was well respected among the high ranking officials of the IMF and US government and he was on the inside, had access to information most people would never imagine.

And, yet, he decided to not be part of what he obviously thought was wrong.

He's now a professor at Columbia University. If you want, you can contact him directly at his email: jess322@columbia.edu .

It sure will be an eye opener.

-NALs
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