Haitians in DR

[Rick Snyder]

Exxtol excuse me but you posted while I was typing so I didn’t see your post till after I posted.

As to what Morales Troncoso said as to estimates I think it is probably safe to say that his figures are in fact conservative. I only say this because of the number of identity cards that the one civil office that was raided processes monthly. As time progresses and other civil offices are checked it might be found that many others process an equal amount of identity cards. Then again maybe not but with the assurance that it is Dominicans producing these identity cards, Dominicans turning their heads at the border to allow Haitians in, Dominicans transporting Haitians across the border and Dominicans employing Haitians, all for making money, then I would offer that the figures are conservative.

All published estimates for the last year have put the number of Haitians in the DR at over a million and this latest estimate is for Haitians that have Dominican identity then once again I say it is possible. As things in Haiti aren’t getting better then it is almost a certainty that the Haitian population has increased here. Like the US estimates of illegal immigrants in the US being over 11 million there is no sure way to know the exact amount and this is true here in the DR. The estimates might be more or might be less. I know you said you weren’t rebutting the figures but with the use of the words “hasn't been substantiated” bring out my response.

It is in fact my hope and desire that these reports do engender some sort of hysteria because it is a fact that no solutions will be attempted by politicians or the elite as they are the ones benefiting from this. As I stated earlier, the laws have been and are on the books.

If you should be under the impression that the DR can accommodate both Dominicans and Haitians at the present rate of inhabitants or with the added population of Haitians that is sure to develop then I think you are greatly mistaken. I live it, see it and read it 24/7 and with the way the government and elite fail to provide that which they are required to provide to its citizens I see no way for those services being supplied to Haitians without making the present situation for Dominicans much worse then it already is.

Having said that then if I were in a position of authority and I had a Haitian and a Dominican in front of me I’m afraid I would have to say to the Haitian, “I’m sorry sir but we will have to transport you back to your native land”, and to the Dominican I would have to say, “Sir the Haitians have caused an increase in wages and there is a job open for planting rice. If you don’t know how we will teach you and as you don’t presently work this will help you”. Simple and maybe foolish but what I’m trying to say is that as this is the Dominican Republic that which transpires here should be to benefit its citizens.

Rick

[Tordok]

Large sectors of the population of both countries have suffered from poor governance and the resulting lack of access to education, health and economic development. In recent years however the DR has gone economically well ahead of Haiti. That's reality 101. Anyone paying attention would figure that the presence of hundreds of thousands of unregistered foreigners in any other country would be a matter of great concern for the host nation, which would naturally seek ways to protect its perceived national interests. Those national interests are determined by each country by virtue of being a recognized sovereign state ruled by laws and an otherwise member-in-good-standing of the community of nations. That much is simple geopolitics.

The point that many deride as coming from the DR's autocratic-nationalist corner -even if it is often used indeed by people with paranoid agendas- is however basically true; that the sovereignty of the DR is threatened by the lack of sovereignty in Haiti. And it is not only about large numbers of undocumented workers or some conspiracy by large international powers. In biological terms for example, Nature doesn't care about international borders, much less so in a small island shared by two nations. Land regulation, hydrological resources, epidemics, public safety issues, illicit drug trade issues, sanitation, food production, political violence, inflation, etc...are all important bilateral matters, but Haiti's current State is a fiasco, with a hyperfragmented locus of power that is often violent; thus Santo Domingo has not had a legitimate counterpart in Port au Prince to work with on these matters. Those are legitimate claims by the DR. The international community needs to step in and help fix the profound structural maladies of Haiti.

In the meantime, the realpolitik of the situation is that the DR has chosen to hide behind claimed constitutional prerogatives to justify actions in disfavor of the migrants, often neglecting their basic human rights. Choosing to ignore the reality of a large number of human beings in your midst cannot be a wise policy. In the long term it creates more problems. The State has an obligation to its own citizens to regulate the status of all non-citizen foreigners, but we-the-people should be demanding that they perform these duties legally, rationally, transparently and humanely. The systematic abuses against the Haitians in the DR milieu are a shame and need to stop. The pseudointellectualism that supports this official indifference ought to be exposed and confronted.

IMO, the DR has to be pragmatic enough to acknowledge the economic reality of Hatian labor contributions to the DR economy, stop scapegoating them and apply fairness in their rules towards them.

- Tordok

[Chip00]

Originally Posted by Exxtol

If you ask me this article has done nothing more than engender hysteria (as noted by the commentary of posters) in a country that needs more than xenophobia and politically induced mass hysteria to battle a real and endemic immigration crisis. Los politicos and Troncoso speak of "estadisticas".........but where are the solutions?

--Exxtol

Exxtol

Good point - what are the solutions?

Stepping back and looking realistically -what can the DR do about the Haitians to help them?

But first let's be honest and ask ourselves what the DR does for it's citizens.

1. Healthcare -No: Yes, they have public hospital but as I have sister in laws that have worked in the one in Moca and Santiago they will tell you that people die there every day waiting in line or because they can't afford to buy the medicine they need. If you have never been I recommend that you visit the one in Moca. OK, so the bigger cities have a hospital but what about the campo - zilch. How many die on route to the hospital in the big cities - lots! Ok, what about non life threatening issues -again medicine is not included - no money no medicine!

2. Education - No: Many dominicans I've met as adults spell worse that I did when I was studying Spanish for only 4 months. Yes, one can get a decent eductaion but that will be in the private colegios.

3. Public services - depends:

Power: if you're in the city and have a light pole nearby you can hook on for free. However, the power company, won't be in any hurry to send it to your sector - this I know. The campo is ten times worse. People that don't have inversores go to bed by candle light - this I know as I live with the inlaws in Moca.

Water: in the city you have to pay for it - in the campo it comes so infrequently that people drink rainwater - hey it's not tha bad - I did it for 8 months and I'm still alive - after all we filtered it with an old sock!

Sewer: in the city if you hook on you have to pay. In the campo dig a big hole.

Police: needless to say they are inconsistent at best.

4. Representatives that work for constituents rights - no comment!

So finally, what are all of these services that the Haitians are waiting to get? The soultion is got to start in Haiti itself.

This thread is very similar to another one titled "Worldpress Article on Sonia Pierre and Human Rights for Dominico-Haitians". Some American representatives came here and looked at the Haitain condition and were threatening to stop aid until the Dominicans do something about it more or less. I say why should the Haitians recieve special treatment when there are many Dominicans that live in much the same conditions? I can show them places in Santiago where Dominicans like our maid lives that are just as bad. These politicians don't give a shyt about the Haitians - it's all political jockeying fighting the racist "problem" back home by doing something here. It's "safe" because they can make judgements and recommendations but don't have to pay the price of their repercussions. After all, how many Americans really know how most Domincans live? Heck, what surprises me is the amount of apparent Dominicans that live abroad that vistit this board that don't know either. If these politicians cared so much about the Haitians and their "opression" they could do something that has been done many, many, many times before - present a bill to have them recognized as an opressed people in order that the recieve special statuts which would enable them to have immigration rights to the US - and of course we all know that they aren't going to do that - why because it would be the end of their political careers!

Worldpress Article on Sonia Pierre and Human Rights for Dominico-Haitians

[A.Hidalgo]

Dominican Republic..See No Evil,Speak No Evil,Hear No Evil. The Haitian problem will not go away and will only compound itself as time goes on.

[Rick Snyder]

As Chip came up with the question, "Good point - what are the solutions?", this is something that I too would love to hear the answers to from those that wish to take a stab ot it. Of special interest would be those answers supplied by Dominicans like you Hidalgo, Mirador and others. As this is your country I would like to hear what those with the knowledge of all the problems this situation generates have to say as a possible remedy.

Rick

[Mirador]

Originally Posted by Rick Snyder

As Chip came up with the question, "Good point - what are the solutions?", this is something that I too would love to hear the answers to from those that wish to take a stab ot it. Of special interest would be those answers supplied by Dominicans like you Hidalgo, Mirador and others. As this is your country I would like to hear what those with the knowledge of all the problems this situation generates have to say as a possible remedy. Rick

Rick, the Haitian problem is like global warming, it has gotten beyond the scope of the DR, and there is no will in the international community to do anything about it. When the tide starts lapping at my ankles, I guess I'll just move to higher ground.

[A.Hidalgo]

I am not going to pretend that I can suggest a solution to a very difficult problem. Just look at the US problem with immigration from the south. What I can say is that a fundamental thing has to happen in the DR before any attempt can be made to address the Haitian immigration problem....
Acknowledge and recognize there is one.

[Rick Snyder]

Okay, it wasn’t really my intension to put you on the spot and looking back on it that is exactly what I did and I apologize for that.

I must admit though that I was hoping to get some backing that the whole problem was and is propagated by Dominicans as is the immigrant problem in the US propagated by the US.

As the conditions in many countries continue to be in such bad straits the possibility of illegal immigration is going to increase. The US is fortunate in that its system is well established and they have the temporary ability to absorb the problems that this migration induces. The problem as it relates to the DR is compounded due to the failure through the years of the DR to establish a system directed at all of its citizens. It has always been about oneself and this philosophy has therefore been taught to almost all segments of this society.

The possible problem as I see it for the average Dominican is that with all the ONG’s and bleeding hearts crying the blues for the poor Haitian people that are in this country that there is the possibility that legislation may be passed that puts Haitians on a leveler playing field with the average Dominican, i.e., citizenship. If this should happen then the influx you are witnessing now is nothing compared to what will happen if such legislation goes through.

Let it be known that I do not condone the mistreatment of anyone to include Haitians. If they are in this country illegally, regardless as to how they got here, and there should be a sweep to deport those that are here illegally here then it is my belief that it should be done in a human way and not the way that is reported happening. If a Haitian has been here in the DR for 10 years working illegally and should get caught then I think he should be deported humanly. And anyone dictating that he should be offered citizenship due to the fact that he has been able to avoid detection for so long is off in the head in my opinion. The fact that he has had the opportunity to sow his illegal seed as many times as he wished in those ten years of illegality should not come into play concerning his offspring if it in fact contradicts the constitution of a country. Though there are countries like the US that recognize all children born in their borders as citizens of that country the DR is not one of them. They also are not the only country that doesn’t recognize jus soli across the board.

If you are of the opinion that the DR should interpret what is written in their constitution to match that which is written in your constitution then I would suggest that your brain’s location has somehow been rearranged in your anatomy. I would predict that those that differ from this proclamation would be the same people that say such things as, “you live in their country so accept their customs”. A form of sophistry if there ever was one.

It seems apparent that we will soon know if the subject of jus soli and its further interpretation was considered and addressed in the constitutional reform. If nothing changes in that respect then I would suggest that you learn to live with that aspect of the written law and in your continued and just fight for equality of civil rights that you omit that aspect of it as it will have been proven that change isn’t coming.

As the DR doesn’t have the potential to change the workings within the country of Haiti then the only way I see the migration problem coming to an end is if the DR should get serious about their border and waterways in conjunction with continued deportations carried out in a civilized manner. As it has been proven that Dominicans will jeopardize the sovereignty of their country for money by allowing passage, transporting and employing these illegal immigrants and the fact that so many Dominicans that work for the police, military and immigration department are so uncivilized in their treatment of same that the reality of the situation is that the problem will never go away in my opinion.

Okay, let me descend from atop this soapbox and get back to living my life in paradise.

Rick

[A.Hidalgo]

Rick make sure you have extra nails and a hammer an maybe some extra wood to keep that soapbox in working order, this problem will be with us for a long time.....sadly

[Chip00]

Rick

You make some really good points and we are on agreement on a quite a few things. I would like to make a point that what realistically will happen is nothing. Why? The DR doesn't have the resources to round up Haitians and can you imagine what it would do to their image in the public eye? Already it is apparent that some in the Western world think the DR is a racist state. Imagine the consequences!

Even if they were able to deport the illegals one still has to be realistic about what could the DR do to protect it's borders after the fact. I was originally sent to the DR by my company that had a contract with the DEA back in '99 to work with the DR to set up border outposts in Dajabon, Barahona & Elias Pina so I am familiar with the frontier. It is rugged and I see the DR being able to close this border as much less possible that the US could close it's border with Mexico. Not only that the "proposed outposts" were never built - which tells you how important it is to the current leaders. The fact is this is a country of few monetary resources. Don't hold your breath for a solution in this area.

As far as other solutions go like the government setting up programs to get benefits directly to the Haitian people, that will happen as soon as they start doing it for the citizens first.

The fact is the DR gov't. has no real means to effect a change even if they wanted too. Also, one needs to realize that the Haitian/ Dominican dynamic really is a "symbiotic" one and so as long as both sides are benefitting and there isn't damage to the equilibrium (civil war, famine in Haiti) don't look for any push for changes to happen soon.