Haitians in DR

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by KeithF

Where DR appears to me to be incongruous, is that you have a broadly socialist government that appears to be leaning towards a free [labour] market economy by not implementing the existing laws? Do they (at government level) or the people generally, see it as a 'problem' having Haitian workers? As I understand it (and I'm happy to be shot down on this point) there are 'simmering' racial tensions regarding Haitians?

Broadly socialist government? Other posters have complained that the government is exactly the opposite.

The "problem" is not nearly as complex as you've outlined. It's simply there are more people than the current resource level (use GDP loosely) can, in and of itself, can support.

The answer to the problem is how to increase the resource level. Do that, and the migrant/domestic under/unemployment situation will solve itself by market forces.

Imagine the economic situation in the DR if the remittances from the US dried up.

When you put more rats in a cage beyond the ability of the cage to support them, the rats also get "tense".

[NALs]

Originally Posted by something_of_the_night

Just one question, Nals:

Have you even seen a batey... from a distance...from the comfort of a rented yipeta...as you increase speed to 120 mph?

Yes, I've not only seen bateyes, I have been to a few to see conditions with my own eyes and they are as heartbreaking as the ramshackle slums that are found on the riverbanks and outer edges of all major Dominican cities.

But, what does your question has to do with anything of this thread?

-NALs

[NALs]

Kyle, every single Dominican will not head back to the farms because:

1. Mechanization will drop the demand for labor, thus the current amount people needed to run a farm will be less under mechanization.

2. It's easy to say that no amount of money will influence a person's desicion, and yet you secured a higher level of education for yourself. Why did you went past basic education? Are you going to deny that the monetary aspect did not influenced your decision to get higher education? Even if you were forced by your parents (lets take that assumption), don't you think your parents were influenced by the monetary aspect of what a college education would mean for your future? your life?

Come on now, you and I know the answer.

Even when you say you will never go back to a farm, if the wages were high enough you will begin to think about it. Especially if its work which you have the skills for or can easily develop such skills.

Plus, in order for farm wages to be high, there will be needed much mechanization. So working in a farm will not be the same as it is before mechanization, because prior to mechanization farm work is very physically intensive. After mechanization, its a matter of using machinery which is alot less physically intensive than bending yourself down to chop some crop under the hot sun all day.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll be waiting for Maco's response. He is making some assumptions which I had already suspected he was making, but his last post simply made it even clearer that in fact he is making such assumptions.

-NALs

[macocael]

NALS you have a peculiar dispensation for fixed ideas and they are always abstractions, I have noticed. I dont think you understand human nature very well, or perhaps you havent made a study of it. Here is one example:

"Why did you went (sic) past basic education? Are you going to deny that the monetary aspect did not influenced your decision to get higher education?"

Are you really serious? Is there really no way you can understand a person's decision to seek higher education except if it be for monetary gain? Most higher education of the post-grad type does not lead to higher salaried jobs, but it does lead to other satisfactions, and I thought Keith's post spelled all that out pretty clearly.

Look we are all in agreement that wages are an incentive and a motive force. No doubt about that, but let us not ascribe to them more power than they in fact have. People will certainly seek out better wages, particularly if they are on the bottom rung and just looking for a way up to the rung above. But they also have other motivations and any analysis of the situation of the Haitian migrant laborers, their effect on the Dominican economy, and the putative competition they present to Dominican workers needs to be undertaken with more than one tool or concept. You can claim that you were simply trying to clarify how one motive element works and no more -- fair enough, but even there I find fault with the exposition, and I have outlined that clearly enough.

Actually I dont think I have more to add really in terms of the basic argument. My last post pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make, perhaps a bit heavyhandedly in my initial post. I would quibble over some points and others I find quite intriguing.

(1) For example, "The change for such firms to be more capital intensive has been slowed or prevented completely precisely because of the flow of migration which has increased the labor supply in segments of the population where such labor supply should had dropped, pressuring such firms to invest in machinery and new technology." I dont think this is the whole reason, but it certainly is a factor. So long as there is cheap labor, and it is cheaper to use the labor than to invest in machinery, there will be no machinery. I would add that this has consistently been a problem here, long before Haitian migrant labor became an issue, and it continues to retard development in a variety of important ways.

But this is where the argument for State Capitalism comes in. Market forces work, they do indeed, but not always to the benefit of the people upon whom they work or even to the benefit of the nations or employers -- in the long run. So the argument runs that it is necessary for enlightened legislature to guide the market along more ethical and, ultimately (or so the argument goes), more profitable lines.

(2) Your response to my Villa Trina example: "example of a short term problem that if it would not have had the influx of illegal immigrants returning, would have been solved by capital investment in machinery which would lower the amount of labor needed." Coffee harvesting cannot be mechanized, as I understand it. It is not like cane, it cannot be mowed down and threshed. It requires carefull handpicking. Anyway, my example was intended merely to point out that the idea that Haitians are taking jobs away from Dominicans is a canard.

(3) Your point about Dominican firms being based in DR. The sugar firms were not based in DR. They operated here, but they were not based here. They were not owned by Dominicans, controlled by Dominicans or identified as Dominican. Their bases were all overseas, and that was intentional. Your argument, like many others, is based on an attempt to play with words, but they have no grounding in the reality of the matter.

(4) "Plus, in order for farm wages to be high, there will be needed much mechanization. So working in a farm will not be the same as it is before mechanization, because prior to mechanization farm work is very physically intensive. After mechanization, its a matter of using machinery which is alot less physically intensive than bending yourself down to chop some crop under the hot sun all day." Good point -- or so it would seem. But not all agriculture can be mechanized. Many crops cannot be processed in this manner. The farmer at the end of my lane in Sonador cannot use machines to cultivate his eggplant and vainitas (long green string beans) --these plants must be carefully tied to stakes and then trained along rows, then they have to be hand picked and sorted. Mechanization works for cane, but coffee, beans, lettuce, eggplants and many other crops simply wont allow for it. So farm work, even on a large scale, will remain in many ways unmechanized and dependent on cheap labor. We see this even in the states. what machine can pick apples? Oranges? strawberries?

Ok, enough. NALs, your turn, expose my assumptions and tear them up. Good hunting.

[macocael]

Interesting titbit in the news today, germane to our discussion:

" Foreign Relations Minister Carlos Morales Troncoso, a former sugar cane industry executive, highlighted the fact that the trend is for increased investments in farming mechanization that will eliminate the need for Haitian labor in sugar cane fields. Dominicans reject the hard work of sugar cane cutting, which has led to thousands of Haitians being allowed to migrate to the country to take their place. These Haitians live in settlements called bateyes, many languishing today as the number of jobs declines because farms are being mechanized. Likewise, while Haitians used to start out working in sugar cane fields, nowadays most come to work in construction work, which is better paid. As reported in Hoy, Morales said that this move would make the country less vulnerable to accusations of slavery and abusive living conditions for the Haitians who come to work in the sugar cane fields and live in bateyes."

well, except for the bit about mechanization eventually leading to the diminution of Haitian labor in the cane fields, the rest of the report is so full of erroneous statements, I hardly know where to begin: First of all, it makes it sound as though the Haitians are in the sugar fields because the Dominicans reject that harsh labor, whereas in fact they are there because of contractual agreements that stretch back a whole century. secondly, it states erroneously that the bateyeros are lacking work because of mechanization -- this is an outright lie as the mechanization hasnt really occurred yet. They lack work because the mills are not functioning any more -- only a handful still do -- and no one has bothered to retrain the workers and help them find other jobs. Thirdly, it is unclear that they have switched to construction work over plantation work simply because the former is more lucrative. the wages are not necessarily better, and the fact that there isnt enough work on the plantations could be what is really compelling them to search elsewhere. Moreover, the new wave of haitian migration is very different in character from the previous form which was definitely defined by plantation work and was overseen by authorities, while the new wave is largely unregulated and more dispersed. Fourth and finally I dont see how Morales can claim that the winnowing of Haitian labor away from the plantations will lead to fewer accusations of slavery and abuse on the part of the Dominican govt, when in fact the new form of migration and how it is being handled by various economic sectors and the govt has led to increased criticism by international organizations and govts. what a crock!

I sometimes wonder why DR1 doesnt vet its new summaries more thoroughly, but I guess it only purports to be a summary of what is found in the papers. Still, these egregious statements ought to be analyzed and not merely reproduced as though they were manifestly true.

[samana3]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

Nals makes some correct points, from a economic market model perspective.

(edit) This situation is common around the world in markets surrounding illegal immigrant communities. The US is suffering with the problem with 12,000,000 illegal Mexican immigrants right now. The market is usually distorted in the unskiiled labor job market.

It's not only illegal Mexicans, Many other people from different country's are illegaly in the U.S including dominicans.

[Kyle]

very true...mexicans are not the only ones coming in through Mexico. i understand Asians are coming in at an alarming rate through mexico as well. Canada has the same problem but on a smaller scale. what is interesting is where illegals are winding up in the US these days. states like wyoming, minnesota have seen a large influx due to the illegals taking jobs noone else wants.

[shadInToronto]

Sorry Nals, none here will grade your dissertation but I think "ctrl+c" followed by "ctrl+v" don't qualify you for a passing grade .... ever heard this adage or something similar? ... those who don't know teach while those who know do

[cobraboy]

i'm 30-ish, what else is there to think about ?[/quote]http://www.dr1.com/forums/431816-post54.html

Really?

[Kyle]

yes really. only Kyle knows for sure. i think cobraboy "depends" is a little too tight. anyone can manipulate a thread to read anything...


nice try