Independence of 1804

[samana3]

The Republic of Haiti is celebrating 204 years of independence of January 1, Lets not forget that Haiti was the first black Republic to obtain independence from a European country (France) in the western hemisphere. What does this day mean for black dominicans in the Dominican Republic? . . . What if the blacks slaves in Haiti never had a rebellion, How would that have an affect on the Dominican history?

[Hillbilly]

Be careful where this goes.

That would be 202 years of independence..

Dominicans, whatever color, shade, tone, whatever, have little or no regard for anything Haitian. Period.

Haití was the first non-white colony to become independant. Their independance was highly restricted by the reparations they were forced to pay France. Their struggles to become a nation have been only recently looked at by historians (except Haitian historians). Haití was also a divided nation, with the blacks of the north against the mulattos of the south...

To answer your question: What does it mean to Dominicans? Nothing.
What if? Speculation....not worth the effort.

HB

[Kyle]

very touchy subject but historical nonetheless...

[Ricardo900]

Black Dominicans are not concerned about the historical events that occured in haiti, they consider themselves Dominicans (red, white or brown) and everyone else considers them the same. No struggle or public cause to identify themselves as Dominicans. Slavery would have ended anyway with or without a rebellion, I see no change in Dominican history other than the only war (if you can call it that) against Haiti for independence.

Mi dos centavos

[Kyle]

maybe historical events that occurred in Hispaniola ? after all it was once one territory.your statement is like me saying i don't give a sh*t about the other states in the US i don't live in.

[NALs]

I will have to agree with Ricardo.

The independence of any other country in the world means nothing to Dominicans. The only independence that is officially and unofficially celebrated in the DR is Dominican independence on 27th of February.

I have yet to hear of the Haitian government celebrating Dominican independence. However, in the last few years the U.S. government has been celebrating Dominican independence at the White House with a small party and important Dominican politicians and businessmen in the U.S. being invited.

But, consequently, Dominican or Haitian independence means absolutely nothing to most Americans as well.

-NALs

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Kyle

maybe historical events that occurred in Hispaniola ? after all it was once one territory.your statement is like me saying i don't give a sh*t about the other states in the US i don't live in.

It's hard to answer your question specifically, because you are asking for us to speculate.

In order for us to effectively speculate on something, we need some information and beyond the point in history where Haiti got its independence we can't speculate what would have occured.

We know that if Haiti wouldn't had gotten independence, there would be no Haitian invasion. The DR would have never willingly become a colony of Spain again the late 1800s and be involved in the War of Restoration. The sugar cane industry would have used almost exclusively Cocolos for labor.

But, most importantly of all, Haiti would have probably be much better off economically today than they currently are. If they would have remained colonies of France indefinitely, they would have probably be incorporated into the French republic in the same manner Martinique and Guadaloupe are today. In other words, Haiti could have become an outright overseas French Departement which includes massive subsidies in infrastructure, education, etc and the creation and maintenance of an artificial wealthy economy.

BUT, it's hard to say that such thing would have occured. According to all historical documents, the French in Haiti were among the worst slave owners anywhere. For example, the average African slave had a life expectancy of only 6 months after arriving in Haiti. Contrast that with the life expectancy at birth of a slave in the U.S. which in 1850 was 36 years. That was more than Italy in 1885 with 35, Austria in 1875 with 31, Chile in 1920 with 31, or Manchester England in 1850 with 24 for their total populations. In other words, African slaves in the U.S. had a much higher life expectancy that did residents of Italy, Austria, Chile, or Manchester England at that exact timeperiod in 1850! (source: "A New Economic View of American History by Peter Passell and Jeremy Atack).

Given the extremely low life expectancy of slaves in Haiti (which was certainly due to poor nutrition and the heat - but also the brutality of the French towards their slaves), a successful revolution was imminent at some point. If it was not in 1804, it would have been at some other time, but Haiti would have come into existence either way.

-NALs

[Quisqueya]

Wow what a question... That's heavy duty stuff. Ok let me give you my opinion. As many stated I think most dominicans do not feel any gratification or connection with the haitian revolution. Samana, it should not be just the obvious darker hue dominicans but all dominicans since cada dominicano tiene sangre de mandingo atras la oreja. Unless, they are recent immigrants. You have to remember the mind set of many dominicans. They believe they were breaking bread with the like of Cervantes while los haitianos were in slavery.

The dominican state came to existance out of the ideology that they were not like haitians. Thus, celebrating the liberation of blacks, mulattos, and the indigenous people for dominicans is a big no no. Yes haiti accepted everyone that would to end colonisation.. Simon Bolívar is an example of that...

ricardo900,

How can you say that slavery would have ended when the last country to end slavery in the americas did so decades afterwards. It's just like saying afro-americans didn't need the civil rights movement since the white americans would of eventually let you guys eat in the same place, don't have to sit in the back of the bus. Hmm!! something to ponder on. Although I do agree that dominicans are not concerned about that since they view themselves as descendants of Don Quijote. I love when my dominicans friends go visit la Madre Patria and get a slap in the face by the spaniards. Anyway, it is sad Samana but that's just the way it is. Although I know alot of dominicans who are proud and empathise with the haitian struggle. BTw, they are not black dominicans by appearance either. Bueno, ellos son gente culta.. me entiendes.. hay una diferencia..

HB, I take offense to that.. Not worth it..I guess the Louisiana purchase is not worth talking about either. The whole midwest would be speaking french right now. Hmmm!!! Haiti should've lost and USA would have been just the east coast and the west coast would still belong to the Mexicans. I do see your point...

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Quisqueya

The dominican state came to existance out of the ideology that they were not like haitians. Thus, celebrating the liberation of blacks, mulattos, and the indigenous people for dominicans is a big no no. Yes haiti accepted everyone that would to end colonisation.. Simon Bolívar is an example of that...

No Quisqueya, that is not why the Dominican state came into existence.

First, the Dominican state came in existence in 1821 out its own desire to be free from Spanish rule! We fought for our independence and we got our independence from Spain. What did we named our country?

Oh, I believe it was "Haiti Español"! Ha! Why would we use the name "Haiti" in our official name of our first republic if it was based on the notion of Dominicans not being like Haitians??? Hmm.

Not too long after that, the Haitian army helped itself in destroying the newly earned liberty of the eastern part of the island by invading and imposing it's rule for 22 years (roughly, one generation).

What happened next? A son of a Spaniard went to France to further his studies and knowledge of the world. Why did he went to France and not Spain? He went to France because that was the most modern country at that time, casting a sphere of influence that pretty much engulfed the world. Only the British had greater global influence. Also, because this son, whose name was Juan Pablo Duarte, lived in an island that was completely controlled from Port-au-Prince at the time he lived.

When he returned from France, he was appalled at the level of backwardness Santo Domingo had compared to what he witnessed in France. His reasoning for why all this backwardness existed was on the Haitian government (similarly how modern people blame their governments for their country's ills). His solution to this problem was not to try to get change in Port-au-Prince. He was a white descendant of a Spaniard, he was Spanish speaking, he was from the eastern part of the island, all disqualification for he to even suggest anything to the authority figures anywhere on the island who were all Haitians.

He found similar ideas and desires in Mella and Sanchez and from that point forward the trinity of the republic (with help from the Catholic Church) the planning for creating a second Spanish speaking republic on Hispaniola began to take shape. They reached their goal on February 27th of the year 1844 when they declared Dominican independence and the Dominican flag waved in the wind for the first time in the history of the world!

Tell me, where is the "Dominicans are different from Haitians" mantra that you claim was the basis of Dominican independence?

Dominican independence is not about "Dominicans claiming to be different from Haitians", but rather Dominicans wanting a better future for themselves and self-goverment was a way they thought they could achieve such. Similar to the Haitians who rebelled against their French masters. They also believed in the notion of Self-government by Haitians for Haitians. It had nothing to do with Haitians claiming to be different from the French, but all to do with being free and self-determination as a people!

Heck, the Dominican flag is based on the Haitian flag, for goodness sakes! The modification was based on placing a white cross which split the Haitian flag into four quadrants, shift the blue and red squares on the right side, place the Dominican coat of arm in the center and voila, the Dominican flag was made.

Compare that to Haiti's flag which is based on the French flag. The Haitians simply eliminated the white center third in hatred of white people, expanded the blue and red third to occupy half the flag each and placed the Haitian coat of arms in the center. Voila, the Haitian flag was made!

Notice, both flags derive from the flag of the previous political power to govern such land. Why didn't Dominican invented a flag from scratch if we really wanted to gain our independence on the notion you claim Quisqueya?

-NALs

[Ricardo900]

Originally Posted by Kyle

maybe historical events that occurred in Hispaniola ? after all it was once one territory.your statement is like me saying i don't give a sh*t about the other states in the US i don't live in.

The country was already seperated before the Haitian and Spanish independence, they were two different soverign countries. The French took their part and the Spanish their's. The US is what it's called, the "United States" of America. Haiti and Dominican Republic are not "United" under one government and it wasn't "United" during the slave revolt in 1804, the French agreed to stay on their part of the island and the Spaniards agreed to stay on their's.