Poverty, Culture, and Conspicuous Consumption

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

My choices, like most peoples, are based on my personal ethics, and as a result my priorities are different to many people's.

And others aren't? They don't think their priorities are different from other folks?

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Morally superior? It's relative. I know some people who might define me as pampered and bourgeois, while you probably think I'm being judgemental and austere.

Judgemental? Yes. Austere? Pampered? Bourgois? I have no idea. I neither know nor care how much wealth you have, and how you employ it. It's your business, not mine.

'Course, you prolly think I'm shallow, mean-spirited, cruel and cold while those who know me may think I'm a lovable fuzz-ball with an expansive heart. The world looks different from differing platforms. Remember the parable about The Blind Men and the Elephant?

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

It is usually combined with discretion and restraint.

I'll bet many of those you condemn think they ARE using it with discretion and constraint. I'll bet even The Donald thinks he does.

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Martínez is saying that is this one of the roots of the country's problems, and is part of a shallow, materialist culture - the veneer of progress without the substance (education and culture).

LOL! Go tell proud Dominicansd their culture is shallow, materialistic and without substance, and see how much he appreciates the comments.

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

The issue of motivation reminds me (again) of the charity sector and donor accountability: charity organisations can't offer high salaries and luxurious perks to their employees, but they still need to attract highly competent professionals. Despite that they manage to find enough people who are so committed to the charitable cause that they don't mind working for less money than they would be earning in an equivalent job in the commercial sector.

There are always a few Do-Gooders to become professional "victims". Ever hear of The United Way, Red Cross or the United Nations?

I rest my case.

I suppose I'm as cynical about the motives and actions of Do-Gooders as you are of Capitalists.

[planner]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

I personally don't give a sankies peso for how someone else chooses to live their life, and show their wealth...or lack thereof.

This is one of the funnies lines I have read. Please, please, please cobraboy may I use this???? Sankies peso............ LMAOROF

[Chirimoya]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

And others aren't? They don't think their priorities are different from other folks?

Kind of the point I was trying to make.

Judgemental? Yes.

Now who's being judgemental! People judge and misjudge each other all the time, and I'm on the receiving end so often that I reserve the right to do my own bit of judging here and there.

Austere? Pampered? Bourgois? I have no idea.
'Course, you prolly think I'm shallow, mean-spirited, cruel and cold while those who know me may think I'm a lovable fuzz-ball with an expansive heart. The world looks different from differing platforms. Most people can be any of those things depending on where you're looking at them from.Remember the parable about The Blind Men and the Elephant?

Thanks for making my point for me - again.

I'll bet many of those you condemn think they ARE using it with discretion and constraint. I'll bet even The Donald thinks he does.

I accept the point that just because they're flashy and showy it doesn't mean they're not making a positive contribution, as NALs pointed out earlier. I still think it's bad manners to flaunt your wealth when surrounded by poverty though.

LOL! Go tell proud Dominicansd their culture is shallow, materialistic and without substance, and see how much he appreciates the comments.

I hear these sorts of comments from Dominicans on a fairly regular basis. Federico Martínez, who I am 99% sure is Dominican, is the one who's saying all this in his blog. Have you read it? LOL indeed.

There are always a few Do-Gooders to become professional "victims". Ever hear of The United Way, Red Cross or the United Nations?

I rest my case.

I suppose I'm as cynical about the motives and actions of Do-Gooders as you are of Capitalists.

Cynical about capitalists? I'll take them on a case by case basis. In the same way as you defend decent capitalists, I can think of so many people who put helping others above personal enrichment, and get results. As well as charity 'do gooders' (memo to self, I must amend my CV ) this applies to other professions where financial gain is not the primary motivation - and this list should include government officials!

Anyway, cobraboy, the debate here is about government spending and warped priorities, and how this is accepted by DR society. I'm glad you've rested your case, because now we can turn away from these distractions and discuss the issues raised in Federico Martínez's blog.

[mondongo]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

....... the veneer of progress without the substance (education and culture).....

Great comment Chiri, keep up the good work. Your use of language and logic is truly top notch.

[dv8]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Anyway, cobraboy, the debate here is about government spending and warped priorities, and how this is accepted by DR society. I'm glad you've rested your case, because now we can turn away from these distractions and discuss the issues raised in Federico Martínez's blog.

let me just point that lots of poor people think that wealth and power SHOULD show. i bet you they treat differently a government official who comes to the campo in a rusty pick up wearing shorts and shaking their hands - they think they can easily abuse him, they flood him with money requests. they would never treat him as equal, because equal he is not. no one knows their place better than poor people.

and then we have a minister in a shiny SUV, hand made suit and crocodile skin shoes, now, here's a man with POWER. people expect something better from those who sit on higher stools (albeit still on their own butts). what would you think about leonel showing up on an official meeting chewing a gum and scratching his scrotum? or even, wearing an ugly, ill-fitted jacket torn under his armpit? one has to behave accordingly to the status...

i confess i was never charitable. growing up having little has taught me to be careful with my money (communist syndrome, always be ready for the "dark hour"), but ion london i was constantly being forced to part with my hard-earned cash. charity is fashionable AND it serves at a mean of judgement.

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by dv8

what would you think about leonel showing up on an official meeting chewing a gum and scratching his scrotum? or even, wearing an ugly, ill-fitted jacket torn under his armpit?

I would think "Hippolito"...

[Chirimoya]

Originally Posted by dv8

let me just point that lots of poor people think that wealth and power SHOULD show. i bet you they treat differently a government official who comes to the campo in a rusty pick up wearing shorts and shaking their hands - they think they can easily abuse him, they flood him with money requests. they would never treat him as equal, because equal he is not. no one knows their place better than poor people.

and then we have a minister in a shiny SUV, hand made suit and crocodile skin shoes, now, here's a man with POWER. people expect something better from those who sit on higher stools (albeit still on their own butts). what would you think about leonel showing up on an official meeting chewing a gum and scratching his scrotum? or even, wearing an ugly, ill-fitted jacket torn under his armpit? one has to behave accordingly to the status...

Errm, how about something in-between?

i confess i was never charitable. growing up having little has taught me to be careful with my money (communist syndrome, always be ready for the "dark hour"), but ion london i was constantly being forced to part with my hard-earned cash. charity is fashionable AND it serves at a mean of judgement.

Charity can mean many things. My kind of charity is not just dishing out handouts that don't help people become more self-sufficient, skilled or capable. Much like the canastas, hairdos and cheap toys that get doled out to the poor at this time of year. They have the opposite effect, IMO.

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Charity can mean many things. My kind of charity is not just dishing out handouts that don't help people become more self-sufficient, skilled or capable. Much like the canastas, hairdos and cheap toys that get doled out to the poor at this time of year. They have the opposite effect, IMO.

Right on. People begin to expect "the dole".

Subsidise something, and you get more of it.

Then again, giving at Christmas isn't THAT bad a thing. The hair-do's and boxes handed out cost what? 500 pesos? That won't buy much edumacation, skills or self-sufficiency.

[dv8]

actually, chiri, are ministers given a choice what car they can have? i thought in uk it's only jags, government buys them by a dozen... LOL

charity confuses me. i am into giving food rather than money. medicines rather than toys. i don't know, maybe i expect cunning poor to sell the goodies they receive (which seems to happen quite often)?

[Chirimoya]

Originally Posted by dv8

actually, chiri, are ministers given a choice what car they can have? i thought in uk it's only jags, government buys them by a dozen... LOL

That's what confused me about Martínez's piece. They do drive Jags, or has that changed? The site he links to makes out that the official guidelines state that a Rover is the flashiest vehicle allowed, for senior ministers only.
Here - I don't know about ministers but officials can choose - take the case of Guarocuya Felix, the head of ONAPLAN, who chose a Skoda, and is cost-conscious in all his expenses.

charity confuses me. i am into giving food rather than money. medicines rather than toys. i don't know, maybe i expect cunning poor to sell the goodies they receive (which seems to happen quite often)?

Unless we're talking about the personal level, I'm not into giving food either, unless it is a complete emergency. The old "give a man a fish" cliché applies here.