Tainos in the DR?

[Nyeden]

Funny thing when I went to visit the new mall of the Colinas in Santiago, there was a security guard working there, and I could have sworn or bet money that he was from Guatemala or Peru Indians because of his features, and he told me no I am 100% Dominican. and I was surprised.!

[asopao]

I have a 3rd cousin that looks like he is got plugged out of the Orinoco Jungle. Everybody, swears that he is some Mexican when he is in the States. He fools people all the time. He is from La Vega.

The guy in the photo ( el peruano) looks more like a Dravidian to me. Too dark to look like an Inca. More of a " Zambo" instead.

[SuperConejo]

I can confirm there was some Taino renmants in dominican dna. Only on the Mtdna though, on the female side. But it isn't too high. Although some small test have suggest mild percetages the whole country would be lower. Why, because Tainos arent the only ones with Epicathic eye fold and high cheek bones. La Republica Dominicana has a small Taino Component mixed with a large african one and an european one thats near the same % as the african, abit less. From highest to lowest i'd say the whole of d.r is African, European(Iberian), Taino. The african is obviously the highest component. If d.r had higher European and Taino components it would look more like the whole of puerto rico.

One thing not mentioned is that alot of the african brought to the dominican republic came from areas were they posses similar features to Tainos, as far as the eyes and cheekbones. D.R had a huge importation of Congo/Angolan/Zaire, this reflects in our language, we have plenty of kongo words, Mofongo, Mondongo, Kamumbo, Kimbamba, Bembe, Toto. We also have some Nigerian blood as well, if u look up pictures of angolans and congolese u will see alot with high cheekbones and almod or slanted eyes. Which they got from some of their ancestors called the Kohisan people of South Africa.
So a combination of a good amount of africans with high cheekbones and slanted eyes, (not as much as tainos but close) with a small taino percentage can make a person look more taino then he is genetically. So observation is not good enough in d.r to asses the Taino component.

Look at this guy, he's Angolan.
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200604/r82286_239094.jpg

This is a Kohisan.
http://www.sa-breeders.co.za/org/afr...n-n2honden.jpg

This is a nigerian.
http://www.nathanielturner.com/image...siadjapon2.jpg

So as you can see they have eyes very close to Tainos, if anythign Kohisan have even more slanted eyes then Tainos. Of course i'm not denying the Taino precense in d.r, but alot of people on this thread are exagerating it. And that comment about few africans brought to d.r, thats obviously not true. You can't rely on statistics because a very large amount of africans brought to d.r during slavery came illegaly! they werent recorded in the Statistic books, alot of them were smuggled in from Curacao (The Dutch).
A great example of an African and a white mixture that looks like it has taino or native american is Barrack Obama. LOL.
http://static.flickr.com/45/141893018_b0030cbf63_m.jpg
He looks like alot of dominicans, hell he looks like my grandfather.
Yet his mother is a full blooded white american woman, and his father is a full blooded kenyan man.

[Chip00]

Originally Posted by asopao

I have a 3rd cousin that looks like he is got plugged out of the Orinoco Jungle. Everybody, swears that he is some Mexican when he is in the States. He fools people all the time. He is from La Vega.

The guy in the photo ( el peruano) looks more like a Dravidian to me. Too dark to look like an Inca. More of a " Zambo" instead.

I was checking out some photos on the web of american indians and while this guy is dark there are photos to be found of indians of this color.

I'm not trying to insinuate that this guy is not mixed - but I believe that he is mostly mestizo if anything. One only really needs to see this guy in person to see how unique he appears - in the sense that he looks so "pure". The photo really doesn't do him justice. I have had my share of american indian friends and acquantainces in the US and this guy would fit in like he was one of them.

As I mentioned earlier all the Dominicans that work for him call him "El Peruano" like it was a fact or something. What is also funny is when I met him when they were fixing the power lines in the subdivision he asked me (as most Domincans do) "where are you from" and I typically say I'm a "gringo" or "norteamericano" and then I asked him where he was from and he answered me with a straight face "Peru" and I said "really" and he says "no, but I tell everybody that so they won't keep bugging me".

If you're ever in Santiago, give me a call and we'll get together for a cold one. I've got his telephone number as he is the line supervisor for our area and I will be definitely calling this guy when we have problems instead of the Edenorte "help line" (those sob's are a bunch of liers anyway - we had a power line go down and thay took 20 days to show up to fix it!!!!). Anyway back to Ramoncito - he actually lives a couple of blocks from the cunada - so again if you're in town give me a call.

[Chip00]

Originally Posted by SuperConejo

I can confirm there was some Taino renmants in dominican dna. Only on the Mtdna though, on the female side. But it isn't too high. Although some small test have suggest mild percetages the whole country would be lower. Why, because Tainos arent the only ones with Epicathic eye fold and high cheek bones. La Republica Dominicana has a small Taino Component mixed with a large african one and an european one thats near the same % as the african, abit less. From highest to lowest i'd say the whole of d.r is African, European(Iberian), Taino. The african is obviously the highest component. If d.r had higher European and Taino components it would look more like the whole of puerto rico.

One thing not mentioned is that alot of the african brought to the dominican republic came from areas were they posses similar features to Tainos, as far as the eyes and cheekbones. D.R had a huge importation of Congo/Angolan/Zaire, this reflects in our language, we have plenty of kongo words, Mofongo, Mondongo, Kamumbo, Kimbamba, Bembe, Toto. We also have some Nigerian blood as well, if u look up pictures of angolans and congolese u will see alot with high cheekbones and almod or slanted eyes. Which they got from some of their ancestors called the Kohisan people of South Africa.
So a combination of a good amount of africans with high cheekbones and slanted eyes, (not as much as tainos but close) with a small taino percentage can make a person look more taino then he is genetically. So observation is not good enough in d.r to asses the Taino component.

Look at this guy, he's Angolan.
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200604/r82286_239094.jpg

This is a Kohisan.
http://www.sa-breeders.co.za/org/afr...n-n2honden.jpg

This is a nigerian.
http://www.nathanielturner.com/image...siadjapon2.jpg

So as you can see they have eyes very close to Tainos, if anythign Kohisan have even more slanted eyes then Tainos. Of course i'm not denying the Taino precense in d.r, but alot of people on this thread are exagerating it. And that comment about few africans brought to d.r, thats obviously not true. You can't rely on statistics because a very large amount of africans brought to d.r during slavery came illegaly! they werent recorded in the Statistic books, alot of them were smuggled in from Curacao (The Dutch).
A great example of an African and a white mixture that looks like it has taino or native american is Barrack Obama. LOL.
http://static.flickr.com/45/141893018_b0030cbf63_m.jpg
He looks like alot of dominicans, hell he looks like my grandfather.
Yet his mother is a full blooded white american woman, and his father is a full blooded kenyan man.

You should be aware from what I understand there hasn't been a lot of mapping of the DNA here in the DR so it really isn't good scientific judgement to make a statement like "Only on the Mtdna though, on the female side. But it isn't too high."

Furthermore, maybe the photo doesn't show this guy well but this is as pure as one will get to an indian here in the DR. One of my references (see original post) was tested as beeing 3/4 indian

As far as the photos you shown obviously the people have a somewhat "oriental" appearance but they look nothing like most of the Domican "zambos" - nothing.

Of course I have nothing against this fellow having african blood in his veins, I just think it will be a very minor part. FYI my wife (as is most of her family and for that matter 90% of all Dominicans here in the DR) is a mulata and so our our daughters so I know the mulato type well.

[costambar]

You can see whole villages of monglian features people in hostile desert mountains around lake Enriquillo. When I saw them, I knew they must be at lest mixed with Indians.
In Duverge are many, many are in Boca Cachon, Discubierta, many of them are in Neiba. All small villages between. This woould be anthropologist paradise.
I did not see any chinese restaurants there and I dont think they build there ever anything including rail road.
When I told them that I bealive they are mixt with Tainos, they were offended, said they are not savages.
Only the above mensioned US dominicans proudly claim herritage.

[SuperConejo]

Chip00 i understand there are some field work being done in DNA in d.r. We know from history that Taino women were the majority of the Taino absorbtion into modern Dominican/Haitian DNA. Remember the Spanish were usually men, women were scarce. Same thing with the slaves, specially the very first ones. They were men. The recorded maroons in d.r were almost always men. This includes the muslim ones who escaped in 1506, and Lemba the kongolese one who escape to the bahoruco mountains in 1540. It is well documented that African men were marrying Taino women in the mountains. How many is uncertain, also that the spanish had taino wives n the countryside. There is almost no record of Taino men and African or European women. Alot of them died in war, since men were the ones who fought.

Also the pictures samples i put were not to say, that they look like dominicans but that dominicans can have ONE of those as parents, and that + rounded eyed european or anyone else would produce a pseudo-taino influenced look. Obviously i'm not denying theres Taino blood in d.r, but its not as high as lets say puertorico. Puertorico has done very extensive DNA studies, unlike D.R were the only one published is one on women with diabetes from a section of d.r.

I have a video somewhere of a kid that looks to be 3/4th or atleast Half Taino. So i wouldn't doubt ur friend is 3/4th.
Also take a note that not all native american DNA in D.R is Taino. We had 2 importations of other natives.
One from Mexico, the spanish brought "Aztec Indians" to work forced labor in the dominican republic. A handful died of disease, some survived. And Curacao was emptied of Arawak Natives and forced to work the gold mines of santo domingo, they say they were retunred back to curacao after a few years. But i wouldnbt be surprised if one or two escaped and stayed on the island.

This is the puertorico study.
According to the study funded by the U.S. National Science Foundation, 61 percent of all Puerto Ricans have Amerindian mitochondrial DNA, 27 percent have African and 12 percent Caucasian.

Notice Mitochondrial (FEMALE). Just from there u can guess from the apperance of alot of puertoricans that there must lots of european and a bit of african on the male side and almost no indegenous.

This is an example in BRAZIL, where there is way more Amerindian DNA and Amerindian period then the whole carribean put together.

In Belen, Brazil, for example, mtDNA analysis identifies 59% of the contemporary population as Amerindian, while Y-chromosome analysis identifies less than 5% as Amerindian. This indicates that 59% of the population of Belen has an Amerindian mother somewhere down the ancestral line, while less than 5% of them have a male Amerindian ancestor.

See less then 5% on the male side, and thats brazil, just imagine D.R.

[SuperConejo]

sorry, double post, delete this one.

[Chip00]

Originally Posted by SuperConejo

Chip00 i understand there are some field work being done in DNA in d.r. We know from history that Taino women were the majority of the Taino absorbtion into modern Dominican/Haitian DNA. Remember the Spanish were usually men, women were scarce. Same thing with the slaves, specially the very first ones.

Superconejo - I recommend you read the first link in my original post.

The statement "know from history that Taino women were the majority of the Taino absorbtion" is disputed by Lyn Guitar - hence the reason I referenced her research. According to her WHOLE families and villages of indians lived unmolested in the DR for MANY years.

Please take the time to read the link completely as I'm sure you will find it interesting.

[SuperConejo]

Thx for the reference to the articles. I had red the one abotu Estevez. Very interesting. I'm, not saying there isnt any Taino dna on the male side, i'm just saying its very miniscule. Even Jorge estevez has African and european blood. I'm going to try to upload a palo video of a kid playing the guira who looks Zambo. I'm sure there were whole families in the mountains isolated for years, but not forever. With the migration of African maroons into the mountains its very likely mixing went on. Not just that, but when Boyer re-settled the countryside with Africans via Haiti they probably ended up in the same areas as them. Specially since he settle most in the Cibao region, specially Santiago, San Francisco de Macoris and Samana.

The southern Bahoruco mountains were also famous for being the mecca of escaped slaves, and i'm sure cultural and "racial" mixing happened there. As evidence of this, in some of the Taino caves they have found Ngangas, which are African Congolese ritual cauldrons, filled with offerings to the spirits. And of course the caves have Taino Paintings and tools also.

I'd love to see a nice large DNA test done on the whole country. My guesses are....

European and African will be battling each other for top position in the male side with a small Taino component, probably like brazil, 5%.

Mtdna, African will be the top, followed by Taino, followed by European.