Tainos in the DR?

[SuperConejo]

Here is the link to the video i was talking about, Notice the kid on the left, he is playing the guira. I think its testament to the African Maroon and Taino connection. He looks like a straight up Zambo with strong indegenous features.
zSHARE - palos3.wmv


For those who dont know, Palos or Atabales is an Afro-Dominican music genre. I personally consider it our real national music. Probably the oldest genre on the island. Very lively, gets to you soul.

[SuperConejo]

Sorry double post,

[Chip00]

Originally Posted by SuperConejo

I'm, not saying there isnt any Taino dna on the male side, i'm just saying its very miniscule.

I think that Lyn Guitar's work will someday dispel that myth. Please understand that I am not making that reference to ALL Dominicans but to certain groups or people that remain that have still a large part of Indian blood.

Originally Posted by SuperConejo

Not just that, but when Boyer re-settled the countryside with Africans via Haiti they probably ended up in the same areas as them.

The Haitian occupation was hardly more than a generation and it's influence in the outlying regions is disputable.

Also, the original intent of this thread was NOT to say that ALL Dominicans have Taino blood - but that there are STILL certain groups or people today that have a large percentange of Taino blood.

[Baracutay]

Hello Everyone, my name is Jorge Estevez and I am very interested if not intrigued by your dialogue on Taino survival in the DR. I see that my name has been mentioned once or twice on here and that of my colleagues. Dr. Lynne Guitar and Dr. Pedro Ferbel.
If anyone is interested, I can be reached via email at Estevezj@si.edu or Baracutay12@aol.com.
I would like very much to be a part of this conversation.
Thank you all in advance.
Jorge

[jalencastro]

Originally Posted by Chip00

As promised, here is a picture of the guy who looks like he stepped out of the Brazilan jungle. He works for Edenorte and all the guys who work with him call him "El Peruano".

he looks EXACTLY like someone I know from Santiago!
I take it you are referring to the person on the right correct?

Jaime

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Baracutay

Hello Everyone, my name is Jorge Estevez and I am very interested if not intrigued by your dialogue on Taino survival in the DR. I see that my name has been mentioned once or twice on here and that of my colleagues. Dr. Lynne Guitar and Dr. Pedro Ferbel.
If anyone is interested, I can be reached via email at Estevezj@si.edu or Baracutay12@aol.com.
I would like very much to be a part of this conversation.
Thank you all in advance.
Jorge

If you want to join this conversation, simply jump in and give us your insights.

You can expand on the following topics, if you like:

- What challenges have you encountered in the process of reviving the Taino heritage?

- How/when did you realized of your Taino roots? DNA testing? Family stories? Etc.

- How widespread do you think the Taino genes are within the Dominican population?

Or you can read the various responses here and if someone said something you either want to expand upon or, perhaps you may see misinformation, you can try to present the other side of the coin.

Here are other threads regarding this topic:

Taino words in Dominican Spanish

DNA Test on Race Identity

Dominicans and their Ancestry

Arawak/Taino descendants: Dead or Alive?

You can search other threads by using the search feature.
-NALs

[Baracutay]

Thank you very much for your cordial invite. Please know that I understand that there are differences of opinions, but I do feel at times that there are certain notions that once ingrained seem very hard to dispel. I will do my best to answer and share as much as I know on the subject. To start I will answer some of your questions:

- What challenges have you encountered in the process of reviving the Taino heritage?

The biggest challenge for me has been showing, demonstrating and explaining what I feel are obvious Taino cultural, linguistic and genetic continuities in the DR and other Islands of the Caribbean. For example, most historians have claimed that our Taino ancestors died within 30 years after contact with the Spanish, but seem to be at a loss at explaining the plethora of Taino words in Dominican Spanish. 800 is the number of place names, common words, names of rivers, flora and fauna that have persisted on the island. At first glance one would assume that the Spanish simply copied the names of things that they did not know. And this of course has always been implied, but a closer look reveals differently. Note the following excerpt from Bartolome de las Casas:
Allí veríades (en las minas o lavadores de oro) hacer sus mochilas cada uno de vizcocho de la harinilla que les habia sobrado o train de Castilla I llevarlas a cuesta con sus azadores I gamellos o dornajos, que acá llamaban I hoi llaman bateas. De Las Casas, p.35 TomoIII
In this case you see that the Spanish had not one word but two for an average tray that the Taino called Batea. Anyone familiar with our island would note that we still use the word Batea to describe an object that the Spanish were similarly familiar with. Why? Did the Spanish collectively decide to drop not one name but two in favor of the Taino Batea? This is just one example. In Jamaica where the Tainos were depopulated to a greater extent, one finds that there are very few Taino words left. What we call Guanabana, the call “soursop” which is English. Is it possible then that the English were more astute in creating names than the Spanish?

- How/when did you realized of your Taino roots? DNA testing? Family stories? Etc.
My Identity was fostered by both my mother and grandmother whom passed away at the age of 104. Since I was young they always referred to their abuelos as Indios. I also noticed that being from the campo we spoke many words that were not common with other Latin American people (I grew up in NY). Out of curiosity I took a DNA test, one that tests for nuclear markers and was surprised to find that my percentages for Native Ancestry were higher than I expected.
But Identity does not start in a test tube, There is a deeper connection to our Native past.

- How widespread do you think the Taino genes are within the Dominican population? In 2003 I and others including Dr. Lynne Guitar and Dr. Martinez Cruzado who did the DNA testing in Puerto Rico, did some field research in the DR. Although we could only gather a few samples (around 150) 33% of these showed Native mitochondria. Dr. Cruzado is set to conduct a wider study in the more isolated areas of the island this summer.
For me it boils down to this, as a people with tripartite origins we will always have four identities: there will always be people claiming to be white, honoring the Spanish and seeing the world through Hispanic eyes. There will always be Dominicans with an affinity to things African and that part of their heritage. Then there will always be, and hopefully with the new revisionist histories and scientific data that supports Taino survival, people who honor the roots of being from the island of Kiskeya. And then of course there will be those who see themselves as a mixture of all three and embody simply being Dominican.
Sorry if I made this too long!
Jorge

[Chip00]

Originally Posted by jalencastro

he looks EXACTLY like someone I know from Santiago!
I take it you are referring to the person on the right correct?

Jaime

Yes - His name is Ramoncito , he works for Edenorte and he lives in El Ejido.

[Chip00]

Originally Posted by Baracutay

Hello Everyone, my name is Jorge Estevez and I am very interested if not intrigued by your dialogue on Taino survival in the DR. I see that my name has been mentioned once or twice on here and that of my colleagues. Dr. Lynne Guitar and Dr. Pedro Ferbel.
If anyone is interested, I can be reached via email at Estevezj@si.edu or Baracutay12@aol.com.
I would like very much to be a part of this conversation.
Thank you all in advance.
Jorge

Jorge

Greetings. We communicated via email a couple of years ago. I live in Santiago now and sent Lynne an email recently.

Please add to this post if you would like - I'm sure the information would be very enlightening for many. Again - glad to have you on board!

Chip

[Chip00]

Originally Posted by Baracutay

Thank you very much for your cordial invite. Please know that I understand that there are differences of opinions, but I do feel at times that there are certain notions that once ingrained seem very hard to dispel. I will do my best to answer and share as much as I know on the subject. To start I will answer some of your questions:

- What challenges have you encountered in the process of reviving the Taino heritage?

The biggest challenge for me has been showing, demonstrating and explaining what I feel are obvious Taino cultural, linguistic and genetic continuities in the DR and other Islands of the Caribbean. For example, most historians have claimed that our Taino ancestors died within 30 years after contact with the Spanish, but seem to be at a loss at explaining the plethora of Taino words in Dominican Spanish. 800 is the number of place names, common words, names of rivers, flora and fauna that have persisted on the island. At first glance one would assume that the Spanish simply copied the names of things that they did not know. And this of course has always been implied, but a closer look reveals differently. Note the following excerpt from Bartolome de las Casas:
Allí veríades (en las minas o lavadores de oro) hacer sus mochilas cada uno de vizcocho de la harinilla que les habia sobrado o train de Castilla I llevarlas a cuesta con sus azadores I gamellos o dornajos, que acá llamaban I hoi llaman bateas. De Las Casas, p.35 TomoIII
In this case you see that the Spanish had not one word but two for an average tray that the Taino called Batea. Anyone familiar with our island would note that we still use the word Batea to describe an object that the Spanish were similarly familiar with. Why? Did the Spanish collectively decide to drop not one name but two in favor of the Taino Batea? This is just one example. In Jamaica where the Tainos were depopulated to a greater extent, one finds that there are very few Taino words left. What we call Guanabana, the call “soursop” which is English. Is it possible then that the English were more astute in creating names than the Spanish?

- How/when did you realized of your Taino roots? DNA testing? Family stories? Etc.
My Identity was fostered by both my mother and grandmother whom passed away at the age of 104. Since I was young they always referred to their abuelos as Indios. I also noticed that being from the campo we spoke many words that were not common with other Latin American people (I grew up in NY). Out of curiosity I took a DNA test, one that tests for nuclear markers and was surprised to find that my percentages for Native Ancestry were higher than I expected.
But Identity does not start in a test tube, There is a deeper connection to our Native past.

- How widespread do you think the Taino genes are within the Dominican population? In 2003 I and others including Dr. Lynne Guitar and Dr. Martinez Cruzado who did the DNA testing in Puerto Rico, did some field research in the DR. Although we could only gather a few samples (around 150) 33% of these showed Native mitochondria. Dr. Cruzado is set to conduct a wider study in the more isolated areas of the island this summer.
For me it boils down to this, as a people with tripartite origins we will always have four identities: there will always be people claiming to be white, honoring the Spanish and seeing the world through Hispanic eyes. There will always be Dominicans with an affinity to things African and that part of their heritage. Then there will always be, and hopefully with the new revisionist histories and scientific data that supports Taino survival, people who honor the roots of being from the island of Kiskeya. And then of course there will be those who see themselves as a mixture of all three and embody simply being Dominican.
Sorry if I made this too long!
Jorge

On the contrary very interesting. BTW if you ever in Santiago look me up. Send my regards to Lynne please.