Tainos in the DR?

[Lovelylocs]

Originally Posted by Lovelylocs

No, I'm an American. As far as I know, I don't have any Dominican ancestry although the people at customs in Santo Domingo will argue it. In fact, I felt more "at home" and welcomed in the US.

Sorry, what I meant to say there was "In fact, I felt more "at home" and welcomed in the DR than in the US."

What a big mistake! LOL Los dominicanos treated me more like family while in the US sometimes the Americans... well u know how it is.

I don't know how to edit a post on here if it's even possible.

[Julio Tulio]

Well Im dominican by blood and all I get is nasty looks and whispers about "ayuditas" from customs.

I dont even get a welcome home half the time.

The women are always sweet as can be but the men just ignore me or give me the "Look at this Dominican-York" smirk.

But thats every poor nation from what I hear.

As far as Taino blood left in Dominicans?I'd say maybe 10 percent of us are more Sambos than Mullatos.

Many dominicans seems to be black but with straight,black hair,full cheek bones and large teeth and asian style eyes.

This is more characteristsic of a Sambo and not a mullato who for the most part just looks like a light skin black person.But since this term and mentality wasnt prevelant in the Spanish Carribean we dont look for it.

I doubt there are any large quantities of mestizons(white and native) in D.R.

[Chip]

Originally Posted by Julio Tulio

Well Im dominican by blood and all I get is nasty looks and whispers about "ayuditas" from customs.

I dont even get a welcome home half the time.

The women are always sweet as can be but the men just ignore me or give me the "Look at this Dominican-York" smirk.

But thats every poor nation from what I hear.

As far as Taino blood left in Dominicans?I'd say maybe 10 percent of us are more Sambos than Mullatos.

Many dominicans seems to be black but with straight,black hair,full cheek bones and large teeth and asian style eyes.

This is more characteristsic of a Sambo and not a mullato who for the most part just looks like a light skin black person.But since this term and mentality wasnt prevelant in the Spanish Carribean we dont look for it.

I doubt there are any large quantities of mestizons(white and native) in D.R.

Thanks for your contribution, however you need to reads the previous posts about the percent of indian blood in the general popuation - in a nutshell, yes, it has been proved by DNA tests that there are still many mestizos here in the DR - in other words, no need to guess when you have facts.

[Exxtol]

Originally Posted by Baracutay

As promised albeit a bit late,here are some of the latest DNA results from the Dominican Republic. For those who do not know or are not aware, Dr Martinez Cruzado who, who sequenced mtDNA in Puerto Rico has also done a mtDNA study in the Dr. His study in the DR commenced in June, 2007. 614 samples were taken. Of these only 174 samples have been squenced.
Sadly for those who still assume there are no people of Taino descent on the island, there was a substantial amount of Native American DNA found in the DR. Here are the results thus far based on the 181 subjects sequenced of the 614:

African: 110- of these many were either Haitian or from immigrants from the smaller Antillian islands.

Indian: 42- of these one was Puerto Rican and the other Panamanian- all in all not bad for supposedly extinct people!

White: 18 ofEuroasiatic descent

Guanche (*canary islander) 4

Another 440 samples have yet to be sequenced. If taken at face value, 23 % of Dominicans have Indigenous ancestry. Of course this mtDNA test is does ot show how many have Native American descent from the y-chromosone (fathers line) or how many have Indigenmous Nuclear DNA. A lot of the test subjects are from very isolated communities within the Dominican Republic. Most of these have not been sequenced.
These tests have not been made public as of yet since most of the test subjects have not been sequenced.

Baracutay,

I am not familiar with mtDNA sequencing. Is the process able to quantify the amount of taino blood within the sample population, or does it simply measure the existence of taino dna, albeit how small or large?

Secondly, I question the statistical validity of the sample based upon the reference given above:

"A lot of the test subjects are from very isolated communities within the Dominican Republic. Most of these have not been sequenced."

At face value it appears the sample was not based on random selection. Moreover, it seems the study suffers from sampling bias, as the prerference to include participants from isolated communities was readily employed.

Will Dr. Cruzado be conducting an experiment that represents a truer represenation of the dominican population? Indeed, for his sake I hope so--if the "facts" of this sample were ever published their validity would undoubtedly be called into question.

Ps. I respect what you're trying to do and I'm certainly open to adjusting my views on the DR's racial makeup; however, until proven otherwise I stand firmly in my opinion.

--Exxtol

[Chip]

Originally Posted by Exxtol

until proven otherwise I stand firmly in my opinion.

--Exxtol

What would be the "short form" of this opinion? And what might it be based on?

[Baracutay]

Exxtol,

Thank you for your questions and observations. Unfortunately when I’m able to tune in to DR1 I am usually at work and send off these rapid fire emails and do not explain as deeply as I should. That said, with regards to the current study the samples have not yet been totally sequenced, they will soon. The results thus far are staggering to say the very least.

This mtDNA study does not specifically look for Taino mtDNA. It simply looks for mtDNA in general. The purpose of the study is multi-faceted. One is to answer the question as to whether, if at all, there truly is Native American descent on the island. Most historians claim that the Taino became extinct 30 years after contact. Some have made very peculiar anthropological statements such as “the Indian blood that did mix with the Spanish and Africans became diluted so at the present time there is no one in the Dominican Republic with Native American Ancestry. This mtDNA test demonstrates that this is a fallacy. I might add that for me this has nothing to do with “size”. It is a matter of facts. Is there Indian ancestry on the island? The answer is yes. How much? Perhaps these tests can give us a clue.

Second the test attempts to trace human migrations to the island. From this test and similar ones conducted in Puerto Rico it has become clear that my Taino ancestors had both Yucatan and Amazonian ancestors themselves. The first migrations to the islands were from the Yucatan approximately 7 thousand years ago. Then around 4 thousand years ago, various Arawakan speakers from the Amazon River basin began arriving. It was a mixture off all these peoples that gave rise to the Taino people.

As for the areas where the samples were taken and taking statistical data into consideration…. of course the samples were random. Many samples came from major cities such as Santo Domingo and Santiago. Most however were from every municipality on the island. Most of us who identify with Taino and the new cadre of modern historians claim that the Taino escaped into the mountains and were able to maintain cultural, genetic and linguistic integrity in various forms up to modern times. So of course this study needed to go into isolated communities as well. After all, they do count, yes?

For the sake of argument I would say that perhaps a deeper study needs to be done in the DR. But you must admit that a sampling of 614 people is pretty large (and the only one of its kind) and the results have either been disappointing or up-lifting, depending on your particular stance on Taino continuities.

In my experience I have found that once people have made up their minds on a particular subject they very rarely change their minds. Many historians are very upset with the current mtDNA conclusions since it does not support their claims of total extinction. You must understand that in our historical past, most historians were writing for selected audiences with particular agendas. Much like today’s newspapers who offer either liberal of conservative views, etc
All the best
Baracutei

[Chip]

Originally Posted by Baracutay

Many historians are very upset with the current mtDNA conclusions since it does not support their claims of total extinction.

Thanks Baracutei. The above statement is unfortunately true and honestly a disgrace to the profession and scientists as a whole. I honestly still have a problem understanding why intelligent people would be so prejudiced against a people and their legacy. Then again, this is sadly a prejudiced world we live in and cases like this once again prove that it has no boundary, language or color.

[A.Hidalgo]

Originally Posted by Baracutay

Exxtol,

Some have made very peculiar anthropological statements such as “the Indian blood that did mix with the Spanish and Africans became diluted so at the present time there is no one in the Dominican Republic with Native American Ancestry.

I do find that statement very peculiar. Why couldn't the same be said of Spanish or African blood. Was their population size that much bigger than the number of Tainos, and the same does not apply? When the Spaniards landed in DR their number was far less that the Tainos. Just throwing some questions out there. If at all possible could you be kind enough to give us some sources of the above statement. Much appreciative of your answer.

[A.Hidalgo]

Originally Posted by Baracutay

Exxtol,

Many historians are very upset with the current mtDNA conclusions since it does not support their claims of total extinction.

I need to get something clarified. Are you saying that there are individuals in the DR that are direct descendants of Taino inhabitants that have not mixed with any other group and are lets say "pure Taino blood" or that there are individuals that are descendants of Taino inhabitants but there has been some mixing down through the years with European, African etc. groups.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Baracutay

Exxtol,

Thank you for your questions and observations. Unfortunately when I’m able to tune in to DR1 I am usually at work and send off these rapid fire emails and do not explain as deeply as I should. That said, with regards to the current study the samples have not yet been totally sequenced, they will soon. The results thus far are staggering to say the very least.

This mtDNA study does not specifically look for Taino mtDNA. It simply looks for mtDNA in general. The purpose of the study is multi-faceted. One is to answer the question as to whether, if at all, there truly is Native American descent on the island. Most historians claim that the Taino became extinct 30 years after contact. Some have made very peculiar anthropological statements such as “the Indian blood that did mix with the Spanish and Africans became diluted so at the present time there is no one in the Dominican Republic with Native American Ancestry. This mtDNA test demonstrates that this is a fallacy. I might add that for me this has nothing to do with “size”. It is a matter of facts. Is there Indian ancestry on the island? The answer is yes. How much? Perhaps these tests can give us a clue.

Second the test attempts to trace human migrations to the island. From this test and similar ones conducted in Puerto Rico it has become clear that my Taino ancestors had both Yucatan and Amazonian ancestors themselves. The first migrations to the islands were from the Yucatan approximately 7 thousand years ago. Then around 4 thousand years ago, various Arawakan speakers from the Amazon River basin began arriving. It was a mixture off all these peoples that gave rise to the Taino people.

As for the areas where the samples were taken and taking statistical data into consideration…. of course the samples were random. Many samples came from major cities such as Santo Domingo and Santiago. Most however were from every municipality on the island. Most of us who identify with Taino and the new cadre of modern historians claim that the Taino escaped into the mountains and were able to maintain cultural, genetic and linguistic integrity in various forms up to modern times. So of course this study needed to go into isolated communities as well. After all, they do count, yes?

For the sake of argument I would say that perhaps a deeper study needs to be done in the DR. But you must admit that a sampling of 614 people is pretty large (and the only one of its kind) and the results have either been disappointing or up-lifting, depending on your particular stance on Taino continuities.

In my experience I have found that once people have made up their minds on a particular subject they very rarely change their minds. Many historians are very upset with the current mtDNA conclusions since it does not support their claims of total extinction. You must understand that in our historical past, most historians were writing for selected audiences with particular agendas. Much like today’s newspapers who offer either liberal of conservative views, etc
All the best
Baracutei

Thanks Baracutay!

To me, these findings say one thing, beyond the obvious.

That is, that Dominicans have always known who we are as a people, country, culture, etc. and much of the doubts and confusions about Dominican culture/identity was created by foreigners thinking they "know" Dominicans better than the Dominicans themselves!

1. Dominicans knew about the Taino heritage/blood that still permeates much of the population, culture, etc.

2. Post-era of Trujillo, foreign "experts" came in judging Dominican culture through their foreign "filters", reaching conclusions that the Dominican reference to Taino, their culture, etc was an evil attempt on the part of the elite to make Dominicans delusional of their identity by hiding the "obvious" via extinct people's and cultures.

3. Now that many Dominicans are beginning to accept the prevailing notions that was created by the foreign "experts", blood tests results shows that Dominicans were right and the foreign "experts" were the ones who were delusional.

Ha ha ha, life is so funny.... at times.

For those DR1ers who might be tempted to create another detour by responding to this post, please don't waste your (or anyone else's) time and/or DR1's bandwidth!

-NALs