Tainos in the DR?

[Baracutei]

Originally Posted by SuperConejo

Its good to see you back Baracutei, but i think its up in the air whether Haitians in the test would offset the African percentage, being that where part of the same island, and also there are some dominicans who may have ancient haitian ancestry of African origin, or even ancient haitian ancestry of Taino origin. I think that Haitians form the fabric of dominican society and would not change the results of the test at all, now cape verdeans, st. thomans and other recent islanders would make somewhat of a difference as they havent been on the island long.

My own family is a testimony to this, i have two Haitian family lines, surname Mayi and surname Jose. The Jose's in my family look very afroindegenous, with somewhat of a predominance of indegenous, yet they are of Haitian-descent. I dont think Haitian always equals african ancestry, the Mayi's are also a simlar case but i know less about them so i can't make conclusions. This was a great test you did, and i think it proves that the Taino's never died out, the big myth has been put to rest, maybe our Taino Mtdna isn't as high as puertorico's, but our culture is just as influenced. The Autosomal tests will be interesting, i am thinking of taking one myself, although autosomal is rather ever-changing, they seem to be getting more and more accurate.

SuperConejo! Good to see you on here as well.
As for the tests, historically more Africans were imported by the French on their side of the island as opposed to the Spanish. So this does offset the tests. If we for example were to try and quantify how much African descent there is in Haiti we could not and should not use the DNA of Dominicans who are say of Spanish extraction, this would offset the test. The same can be said that if Haitians with Native American dna made their way into the test, then this too in my opinion offsets the test as well.

Dominicans for the most part are much more mixed than the haitians so we are talking about two different peoples that are to a large extent related to each other. That said if we take the island as a whole, thats a different story just as if we do it by region the Indian DNA is very substantial.
If we look at the Cibao only, the test reveals that in some communities the mtDNA percentage is 90%! This proves the hypothesis that Lynne Guitar, Pedro Ferbel-Azcarte adn I have always believed, that small pockets of relatively "pure blooded" taino survived until recent times. Most likely until the end of the 1800's.
Since Dominicans have been mixing for a longer period of time than haitians or cubans, pr's etc you will undoubtedly find that no matter how African a population is there will always be European and Amerindian admixture,especially in autosomal DNA. Of course the same hold true that no matter how Pure Indian or high mtdna or autosomal Indian DNA one finds in any specific location in the DR the African and European are also present.

All that said the the revelations if you will that have excited me the most about the last round of test is:

(1) certain haplotypes of African extraction that have been found in the DR and are extremely rare.......even in Africa!

(2) 18 percent of Dominicans (thus far) showing Mtdna out of a population of 10,000,000 , means that 1.8 million Dominicans have Native MtDNA! The autosomal would reveal even higher numbers since all these people without question have family members that do not have native mtdna.
As for the Puerto Ricans, in the actual study only 52 percent showed mtdna of Taino extraction. The population of PR as of July 2008 is 3,958,128 of these roughly half, 2,058, 226 are of Taino extraction, so we actually have about the same amount as they do.

3) the fact that the Taino remained "purer" for longer in the DR would explain why taino material culture and linguistic influence is so much more identifiable in the DR.

So yes, they myth of extinction is dead or dying and it isnt coming back anytime soon.
All the best.
Baracutei

[SuperConejo]

Thanks for the response Baracutay, reason why i said it doesnt really offset it, is because there some dominicans who have ancient African ancestry from Haitians during the 1800s, and even before Haiti was haiti from Africans who escaped the french side, to the spanish side, there are also Taino settlements that have moved eastward and southward. Some of the Africans brought in by the spanish were also living on the western side of the island, before the french got there, as maroons, so evne before the french started importing africans, they had existed on that part of hte island as well.. The Cibao would make sense for having a much higher taino mtdna, as well as san juan de la maguana, and azua, this also has to do with the fact that both africans and taino's lived in all those mountain ranges for a very long time. Your very right about pockets of Taino survival, it makes alot of sense, since most of the African maroons where male's, leaving them to marry with Taino females in those regions. What percent did you get for san francisco de macoris, i'm a litlte biased because its my town and i have a long history in it, some of my family where the founders of San Francisco de Macoris = ), i feel very attached to it. I'm sure S.F.M has a very high taino mtdna, maybe not as high as jarabacoa and santiago but i'm sure its up there! I am also dying to know which rare african haplogroup this is. Thankyou so much for you and your group doing this very necesary study in d.r, i feel like the spirit of fradique lizardo lives on.

[Baracutei]

Superconejo,
After reading your last post and pondering a bit deeper I have to admit that you are correct. The Haitian element in the Dominican Republic shouldnt offset the test in any way. I stand corrected compai!
Un abrazo
Baracutei

[faithie]

Really interesting folks......, you learn something new every day.

Like the Carib Indians on "Dominica".

[Chip]

Originally Posted by dominicanisblack

the reason haiti invaded was to free the dominican slaves who were being enslaved by white dominicans and white spaniards

There were relatively few slaves compared to Haiti, why also did the Haitian invaders have to massacre so many innocent civilians including no doubt free "blacks"?

Originally Posted by dominicanisblack

know your history but most dominican history is bull**** im proud to be black

I guess if you decide to rewrite Dominican history we should believe you?

Also, this thread is about Tainos, so stick the topic or start your own thread - thanks.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Chip

There were relatively few slaves compared to Haiti, why also did the Haitian invaders have to massacre so many innocent civilians including no doubt free "blacks"?

A better question would be why did the libertos (African Americans invited to settle on Dominican territory by the Haitian invaders) joined the native Dominicans in ousting the Haitians from the eastern part of the island? Can we use the words abuse somewhere here?

Oh well, its not part of the topic of this thread, but it sure is interesting.

-NALs

[ExtremeR]

I have a friend who is from Neyba who has some strong Taino connotations in his face, I will ask him if it is ok to post a picture of him here. We usually joke around with him telling he is from Peru.

[bachata]

Originally Posted by ExtremeR

I have a friend who is from Neyba who has some strong Taino connotations in his face, I will ask him if it is ok to post a picture of him here. We usually joke around with him telling he is from Peru.

I have the same situation, some time when I go with my wife to the stores here in the US. We meet people from other country and during the conversation , everybody say… you guys , don’t looks like Dominican!!!! , everybody think that I’m Peruvian and my wife Caucasian. That is funny they think that all Dominicans are black.


JJ.

[JRMirador]

Originally Posted by bachata

I have the same situation, some time when I go with my wife to the stores here in the US. We meet people from other country and during the conversation , everybody say… you guys , don’t looks like Dominican!!!! , everybody think that I’m Peruvian and my wife Caucasian. That is funny they think that all Dominicans are black. JJ.

You should have asked those people you bump into in those stores in the US, where they thought the DR was located. Most probably they would have answered, 'Africa'.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by bachata

I have the same situation, some time when I go with my wife to the stores here in the US. We meet people from other country and during the conversation , everybody say… you guys , don’t looks like Dominican!!!! , everybody think that I’m Peruvian and my wife Caucasian. That is funny they think that all Dominicans are black.


JJ.

Same here.

Every time someone tells me that I don't look Dominican, I always tell them to explain to me what exactly is the Dominican look and this is almost always followed by an odd silence. Then I break the ice again by saying we come in all colors, shapes and sizes and quickly shift the conversation to something else.

There was a time when I met a beautiful woman from Tibet, she didn't believe that I was Dominican even after I explained everything to her. The time that she "got it" was when another Dominican asked me if I'm Dominican, because as you know, Dominicans can spot each other a mile away. Unbelievable, that had to occur before she got it.

You live and you learn.

-NALs