Are Dominicans better off?

[Don Juan]

Let's not look at things in absolute terms. There are, and always will be, exceptions to every scenario/situation/rule imaginable. I can not speak and have no statistics/documentations to back up any of my postings nor do I care to.
I speak only from personal experience.
I did have my breakfast in elementary school. Whether every kid in every school did, I have no idea. Schools were clean and teachers taught me well. Can't complain.

School was compulsory, but as it happens in every country, even the US, these (schools), were not absolutely everywhere and not everyone took advantage of them, even when available.

Regardless of all your statistical 'evidence', when I travel there and everywhere in DR, many cities lack electricidad constante and I can still see with my own eyes poverty, malnutrition, children idle during school hours and people hanging around, unemployed.
I know people in la capital who have children that attend public school and they are NOT given a school breakfast.

You can argue and point out all the papers you want "proving" the great societal progress you speak of. Also electricity companies promising this and improving that, but the fact is, nothing has changed for the better as far as these two issues are concerned. We're still illiterate and still suffer long-term blackouts the same way as it has been for decades.
I don't need read any of the hogwash the gov. puts out. I have eyes and seen otherwise.

I'm not here to tell you how great things were in Trujillo's era, and nostalgia has nothing to do with my argument. What I'm saying is that, as bad as life was then, it was certainly not as complicated and dangerous as it is today.

Understand one thing, DR has made progress in many other aspects, but the most basic to prosperity are the ones that have not been enphasized.
If we had a nationwide school breakfast/lunch program, children would come to school, if nothing else to eat food.
If we had the electricity problem solved, national and foreign industry would set up shop in droves. These two issues must be addressed or nothing will ever change for the better.
I thrust we understand each other now.

[dulce]

Every one of my close Dominican friends have improved lifestyles since I met them in the late 90's. I have seen them go from having no car to a car and then as the years passed the cars have increased in value. The same is true with thier living quarters. Some lived at home sharing small spaces with large families and moved to small apartments alone. Now they live in bigger and better apartments or rent houses. I take that to mean that life has improved for many Dominicans. My friends started out in Santo Domingo, Jaun Dolio, and San Pedro. They now live and work in Punta Cana. I of course am aquainted with many who are living at the same low standards in crowded family homes in the campo.
It is my belief that the Dominican Republic has the potential to be one of the richest islands in the Carribean. The country has enough people with the brains and work ethic to make it a reality. We all know why it doesn't happen.

[Don Juan]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

No real disagreement from me. I just find that sometimes romantic nostalgia is more easily remembered than the hard times.

The entire world is less friendly today than it was 40-50-60 years ago. One thing for sure: we hear more about the world now than then, a function of communication technology.

I see it as rats in a cage. At some point peaceful pet rats become violent when there are too many in the cage. The population of the DR was much smaller 40 years ago than today. Seems to me there are more people on the island than the island can peacefully support. Just imagine what it would be like if all the Dominicans in the US came back to live in the DR.

It is very difficult not to look at life without factoring in the political situation.

I wish we leaved the word "nostalgia" out of this discussion. I am no more inclined to live under a total dictatorship, than I am in some of the worse barrios of today's SD.
to reiterate my argument, there are bad places and times and there are worse places and times. I don't long for a repressive murderer, but neither do I feel comfortable/safe in DR today!
In the old days, you had one devil to worry about, today you have many devils to avoid. It's like saying: would you rather be a safely caged bird or a free mouse in a neighbourhood full of cats? What would you choose?
you want to be caged or you want to be free and if so, under what circumstances?
Please don't misunderstand me. I may be old but I'm not a fool. I recognise the value of freedom, but If not for the continuously dysfunctional governments we've had to endure in DR, you'd neither be caged nor have to worry about cats.

[Norma Rosa]

I'm curious from older DR hands than myself - what comparisons can be drawn about the schools now, versus 40 years ago?[/quote]

Like anything else, education is going down the drain. We have more illiterate people today than ever before (granted: Our population has increased tremendously). In a positive note, we have more universities, but do graduates find employment? The answer is no.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Don Juan

If we had a nationwide school breakfast/lunch program, children would come to school, if nothing else to eat food.
If we had the electricity problem solved, national and foreign industry would set up shop in droves. These two issues must be addressed or nothing will ever change for the better.
I thrust we understand each other now.

Honestly, I don't understand your stance, but I'll accept it.

However, I must say that I know people who live in neighborhoods which have been placed on the 24 hours electricity plan (in Santo Domingo and Santiago), thus I am not simply quoting sources for the sake of quoting sources.

And there are many schools which offer breakfast and the DR has a very high school attendance rate up to age 17.

Those are facts and its incomprehensible to me why anyone would choose to think the opposite when the changes are occuring, yes slow, but they are occuring.

Then again, some people have to see something before they believe it. If so, I'll suggest for you to visit Las Praderas in Santo Domingo and ask people there how the electricity service has improved and why has it improved in the last few months. Don't be surprised when they tell you they have it 24/7 because everyone reached an agreement with the electricity company to pay their bill.

So, if you need to see something before believing it, by all means go to the places where some problems have been fixed recently and see it for yourself. Then wait and see as other areas are incorporated into such stable electric service.

To continue to assume that nothing is being done to fix the electricity problem when in fact they are doing something about and to continue to think that its a tiny minority of the schools which are receiving breakfast when in fact a mayority of them are offering such or to think that its simply political jargon that is being spewed into the news media without proofs to back them... well, it just doesn't make sense to me.

No, we don't understand each other and rather than continuing on this path of misunderstanding after misunderstanding, I think it would be best to for each of us to go on our own path regarding this matter.

-NALs

[Norma Rosa]

The following insert was taken from:

Inter-American Commission on Human Rights

C.*** Education
420. Education in the Dominican Republic still faces grave problems, despite the efforts of the Dominican state. This is observed in the indices of education, illiteracy rates, and attendance of minors in school.

421. According to the World Bank, 13% of children ages 7 to 14 do not attend class because they work outside the home or stay home doing house chores. Approximately 11% work and go to school at the same time, which means that for one-fourth of the population of minors it is impossible to continue the education they need to become more skilled.

422. Illiteracy among minors in the Dominican Republic is relatively high. According to UNICEF, 15.6% of minors ages 10 to 17 years do not know how to read or write, and only 25 of every 100 adolescents ages 15 to 17 have been to secondary school. Dropping out of school to join the work force, dropping the books and taking up work, is probably the most serious problem children face.

[Don Juan]

Yes, I won't argue the point further, Mr. Nals. You choose to selectively give examples to counter the obvious deficiencies in education and electricity throughout the land.
You and I know that there are exceptions. Sure, this school has meals served. but what about the many others?
Sure, this neighbourhood has electricity 24/7, but what about the rest of the country?
You choose to stick your head in the sand, I don't.
Go ahead and explain yourself around Norma Rosa's post above.
Do you understand now?!!

[Rick Snyder]

Don Juan,

I’m sorry but I feel slighted as you addressed your post #21 to me and the AMC Nals.

I do in fact know what you are trying to say but it was you in post #4 that said, “I'd rather lived under a Trujillo-era milieu than the so-called freedom in today's DR”. I assume you made that statement with tongue–in-cheek as you followed up in post #9 whereas you said, “I certainly do not "prefer" a Trujillo over a Balaguer or Fernandez, but I do long for the good ol' days when life was simpler everywhere in the world”. It is this longing for the ‘good-old-days’ that brought out my use of the word ‘nostalgia’ in the only post I had made to this thread.

I too have a tendency for the good old days in the US. It was the daily conversations with your neighbors and the daily greeting that I missed and when I found that custom still alive here in the DR it served as one of the basic reasons for deciding to live here. When I arrived in 96 there was no reason to lock your doors but as in all parts of the world things change and not always for the better in all respects.

My earlier reference to freedoms that Dominicans now have was by-passed but I still feel it is an important point to life here. It seems to be very apparent that LF is playing the fool with his wanting to construct this Metro but the media and people important and not so important are speaking out against this plan. All indications that I have be it through reading past articles or listening to older Dominicans is that NOBODY would have dared to speak out against anything that Trujillo or Balaguer undertook. It is my opinion that this new freedom is a good thing.

Rick

[Don Juan]

The "good old days" in the context of my spiel relates exactly to one of your statements: "when I arrived in '96, there was no reason to lock your doors".
That specifically is what I refer to; a place and time. Please understand that I, by no means, advocate living under the yoke of a tyrant. But, would you not admit that crime today in DR, is out of control? As opposed to an earlier time?
This is akin to the dangerous northeast section of Washington DC, near where I live, where the murder rate per capita is higher than anywhere in the country. You wanna live there?
Apparently you can't have political freedom and a crime-less society.
If you had to choose, which would you choose? There's the rub!

I don't need to tell you how much people value their freedom. Freedom that brings forth the good things democracy has to offer. (speech, assembly, etc). But people also value the freedom to walk around their neighbourhood without being mugged, to leave your doors unlocked without fear of being burglarised, the freedom to use a cell phone without being killed for it, etc.

Corruption and bad government makes for a chaotic, rudderless ship. We don't seem to be getting anywhere concerning literacy, poverty and crime (which most times go hand-in-hand) and the electricity problem which has persisted since la era de Trujillo.

And I repeat, unless these serious issues are dealt with, DR will never emerge out of it's third-world, backwards, banana republic status where it has been stuck since time immemorial. Rosy pictures you and Nals paint, notwithstanding.

[A.Hidalgo]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Don Juan
[QUOTE

Apparently you can't have political freedom and a crime-less society.
If you had to choose, which would you choose? There's the rub!

There are countries that have a high level of political freedom and low relative crime rates. As an answer to your question, without hesitation my choice would be for political freedom.