Metro will be "cheap" ja ja ja ja

[A.Hidalgo]

Originally Posted by Mirador

You got your saying wrong, it should read, "You don't change horses in the middle of a stream".

However, there's another proverb that says, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".

Am I not allowed to make up one?? I think in this context it makes sense.lol

[Rick Snyder]

My point is not to get into an argument with anyone on this matter because as pointed out the system is in fact in the construction phase so there is no sense in arguing that point. I only wish to point out that of all the other choices that were available to the government that they chose the most expensive one and regardless as to what you may wish to try to convey concerning what you suppose is the final cost I only wish to point out that the cost of this monstrosity, if it does in fact becomes operational, will not stop at that point. The cost will not stop in 10, 20 or 30 years from now much less in your lifetime.

At this point let me also convey to all of you that whether this gets built, becomes operational or caves in it will have no effect on me in any personal way other then the fact that the taxes I pay will continue to go up but in my position I can afford to pay them. The average Dominican on the other hand is having a hard time affording to live with the present taxes in place and will therefore suffer even more to pay for a maybe operational system that 80% of the population of this country may never see much less use.

From that which has been posted above the major statements that pop out at me are, “(very old cars), taken off the streets and prevented from contributing to lung cancer, etc.” and “By removing all these carcinogen causers, (chatarras), traffic will once again flow smoother”.

Now in all that has been published concerning the metro I fail to remember any mention that any vehicles would be forced off the roads. If you would be so kind as to point me in the proper direction for this information I would appreciate it. If I did fail to see this information and this by some chance is a plan in some minds of some people then I think you can rest assured that this will never happen unless the plan is to compensate the owners with new vehicles which raises the price proportionately. When discussing the livelihood of the citizens in this country of very low employment opportunities and you commence to talk about cut backs in jobs then you are inviting disaster. My opinion as I could be wrong.

Before talking about traffic congestion I think a firm understanding of it and how to reduce it should be undertaken first. If you are in a position that you can circumvent the basic rights of ownership as it relates to vehicles then you are at an advantage over the problem as faced by states that take rights of individuals seriously. If you factor in such things as assuming that planners and policymakers are trying to relieve congestion, that it's one of their principal objectives I think that you will find that similar to the supposed studies of the ground for the metro digging that no such plans were carried out. When talking about congestion, things like intra-urban freight deliverymen, service deliveries, supermarket stock-ups, and commercial and freight tasks must be taken into consideration also. Now if you can take their vehicles away from them also then all your congestions problems are gone and if not then you are right back at square one.

Rick
More to follow. Good night.

[Don Juan]

Rick, My point here is that when the Metro is fully operational, People will most likely opt for the most convenient, fastest way to commute, even if it costs a few more pesos. The "conchos" along that corridor will most likely suffer for lack of enough passengers and will be forced to give up their line of work when it isn't cost-effective anymore.
I think thousands of people will give up the traditional, cramped, dangerous and close proximity to stinky people in a chatarra, for the comfort of an air conditioned, fast subway car. Wouldn't you?

[Funnyyale26]

The way I look at this is that politicians in DR have always robbed the people and have been corrupted so the only reason why I am sort of OK now w/ the Metro is that, it is better for them to invest in something useful that the country will benefit in the long term rather than have the politicians steal all of it. The metro will not solve the transportation problems overnight; it will be a complement for the city and I heard that it will help the people that lives in the northern part.

[Rick Snyder]

Don Juan,

I understand your point that you are trying to make and can appreciate that which you wish would be accomplished by this project. All I can relay on to you and others that may have an interest in such things as smog, congestion and the other woes associated with transportation is that which has been studied and proven over the years in all other parts of the world. As all those studies have coincided with each other regardless if they were conducted in Paris, Wash DC, Berlin or anywhere else then it just stands to reason that those same end results will apply to Santo Domingo as well. To some this might be a big assumption but I honestly think that the Dominican traffic problems are no different then anywhere else in the world.

Any approach to any problem in this country requires not only the implementation of necessary laws but the enforcement of those laws if your true intention is to remedy the problem. I won’t go into any song and dance concerning the many laws that are on the books here and the types of enforcement presently being used as it relates to those laws as I am sure that the board is well aware of the situation here. I only wish for you to keep in mind how things are done here and place that into the equation as it relates to problems of any sort here.

When talking about traffic congestion it is not necessarily the amount of vehicles that are involved but rather the speed and consistency of movement that determines if there is congestion. Most experts and drivers believe that if you can get from point A to point B in a certain length of time and it is done without too many stops and starts then the commute is acceptable and the number of vehicles has no bearing and this commute.

When talking about smog then the number of vehicles on the road would in fact play a part in the amount of same. There are a number of problems associated with the discussion about smog in that vehicles are not the only source and because of that fact any attempt to reduce the number of vehicles will have no true impact if the other sources aren’t addressed also. As there are laws presently in place that address smog from fuel burning vehicles as well as for other smog producers then the simple enforcement of those laws would provide a positive result as it applies to the situation. All of which brings us right back to laws and their enforcement in this country.

As the remedy for reducing smog has been addressed then let us talk about congestion and how to possibly reduce that. Referring to those prior studies it has been proven that there are a number of ways to address this problem. The one that always peaks my interest is that of the contention that congestion cannot be eased for all without some measure of making at least some forms of commuter travel a function of ability or willingness to pay for that travel. As the passenger pays for the service of public transportation what requirement is there for the drivers or owners of these modes of transportation, both public and private, exist for their use of the public routes that exist? There is none and therefore everyone, regardless as to whether you own a vehicle or not, pay through general taxes. Therefore as a passenger in public transportation you are in reality paying twice for the same service whereas the owners and drivers of both public and private modes are only paying once. I can delve into this subject deeper only if there is an interest in knowing how to benefit from this ‘payment’ function.

At this point I will address the questions and statements you posted;

“The "conchos" along that corridor will most likely suffer for lack of enough passengers and will be forced to give up their line of work when it isn't cost-effective anymore.” – I believe this is a fallacy and a possible wish on your part as a hopeful means of reducing smog. I honestly believe that they will only give up their line of work if you provide another line of work. As the feasibility of that is slim to none then you will only force them to move to another sector which would more then likely 1. Increase the distance being driven, (increasing smog?) and 2. Increase fares due to the added fuel needed to operate.

“I think thousands of people will give up the traditional, cramped, dangerous and close proximity to stinky people in a chatarra, for the comfort of an air conditioned, fast subway car. Wouldn't you?” – Yes I would but I can afford same. The average Dominican on the other hand has been raised to accept the present situation so it has therefore become part of the culture, (your words “traditional”). Cramped and close proximity is very normal here but that of ‘stinky’ is something that I have only experienced maybe twice in my 11 years here and I use a lot of public transportation. The average Dominican is virtually never ‘stinky’ when they go out in public as this too is part of their culture.

As people post here on this board and when the discussion turns to money and the earning and paying of same I am forever struck with the feeling that the vast majority of those posting have no true concept of that which is faced by the ‘average Dominican’ here. Everyone seems to look at it as it relates to ex-pats and those living in other countries. The situation here is bad as it relates to the ‘average Dominican’. This is true from PC to PP and all points in-between. When talking about the fare price for a ‘chatarra’ it doesn’t revolve solely around the fact that it is cheaper it also revolves around the fact that it is all they can afford. In the ongoing situation as it concerns the public transportation here with the latest fare increases the ‘average Dominican’ has no choice but to pay this increase because walking is not an option in the majority of the cases. So try to remember that when transportation raises its prices it affects all Dominicans that use those services from PC to PP and all points in-between and not just the capitol. In the same token when the taxes go up to pay for traffic decongestion in the capitol or rapid transport in the capitol that all Dominicans from PC to PP and all points in-between will pay for it which equates to less money to live on in PC to PP and all points in-between.

Rick

Funnyyale26, I have read two of your posts now and I am now going to respond directly to you. You said, “invest in something useful that the country will benefit in the long term rather than have the politicians steal all of it”.

When you say “the country” are you trying to insinuate that the country as a whole will benefit or are you referring only to Santo Domingo?

As you have failed to give any indication about yourself other then that posted in your first post to this board whereas you said, “(which we need in latin America)”, and your second post where you said, “what are we going to do?”, which would give me the indication that you may possibly live here or are Dominican. It would be nice if you were to expand a little about yourself so that the board members could get a little feel as to where you are coming from and going to in your conversations with us. Oh, by the way, WELCOME TO DR1!

I also wish to inform you that the this metro now and forever will be a source of income for certain politicians illegally as that is the nature of the beast here.

[aegap]

Originally Posted by Heketi

The "vox populi" have spoken and Leonel might be the "first passenger" on the metro.

..and Don Quijote is in need of a Burro for his next lark.

[Funnyyale26]

Originally Posted by Rick Snyder

Funnyyale26, I have read two of your posts now and I am now going to respond directly to you. You said, “invest in something useful that the country will benefit in the long term rather than have the politicians steal all of it”.

When you say “the country” are you trying to insinuate that the country as a whole will benefit or are you referring only to Santo Domingo?

As you have failed to give any indication about yourself other then that posted in your first post to this board whereas you said, “(which we need in latin America)”, and your second post where you said, “what are we going to do?”, which would give me the indication that you may possibly live here or are Dominican. It would be nice if you were to expand a little about yourself so that the board members could get a little feel as to where you are coming from and going to in your conversations with us. Oh, by the way, WELCOME TO DR1!

I also wish to inform you that the this metro now and forever will be a source of income for certain politicians illegally as that is the nature of the beast here.

Hi, I am sorry for not introducing myself properly. I am born to Dominican parents but I was actually born in Azerbaijan and I live in New York. I am trying to be more informed about what happens in the DR and I think that this Message board provides great useful useful information on what happens there.

Anyways, I am aware that the train will only benefit A PART OF Santo Domingo, but it had to start from somewhere and these things go slow. We all know that it was wrong to start constructing a Metro NOW, given that most of the population is poor, lacks access to education, jobs and healthcare and DR is a weak economy that can barely sustain itself. But it has started already and it has to be done. The success of the metro will greatly depend on who manages it.


I thought this article was very interesting. Sorry, I don't have the date but it was published in clavedigital.com

El Metro en Ruta

¿De que depende que esta inversión sea en la práctica rentable? En el sistema de administración que se elija para operar el metro.

Cuando entre a correr la primera línea del metro por los rieles de Villa Mella hasta la Feria, en el 2008, el transporte de la ciudad de Santo Domingo será otro. La OPRET tiene el compromiso de construir una línea de 16 kilómetros con 15 estaciones, 4 arriba y el resto debajo de la tierra, incluyendo una estación de servicio en la Universidad Autónoma de Santo Domingo.

Las estaciones están siendo construidas con un sistema de seguridad para los pasajeros, además de conexiones para abordar los autobuses.

Aunque el costo de la obra ha sido estimado en US$800 millones de dólares, es decir unos RD$26,400 millones de pesos dominicanos, si se toma una tasa de cambio de 33 pesos por un dólar. Eso quiere decir que el costo por kilómetro saldrá en RD$1,650 millones de pesos o US$50 millones de dólares, que es un costo promedio de construcción de los sistema de metros que se construyen en el mundo. El sistema de metro que se construye en la ciudad de Maracaibo, Venezuela en estos momentos tiene un valor similar.

La idea del metro surgió en el 2004 cuando el Presidente de Brasil Lula Da Silva la sugirió al entonces Presidente Hipólito Mejía, pero no fue acatada sino por el actual Presidente Leonel Fernández. El número de pasajeros que se estima moverá este moderno sistema de transporte masivo de pasajeros será de 200,000 por día.

La firma Alton Metrópolis, de nacionalidad francesa, fue escogida para la construcción de los 57 vagones que tendrá el sistema. Esta firma tiene la reputación de haberlo hecho para 40 ciudades en el mundo incluyendo el mismo Paris. El consorcio Siemens tiene a su cargo la parte de los equipos electromecánicos, firma de reconocimiento mundial.

La ruta del metro ha sido diseñada para descongestionar la presión que tiene el actual caos del transporte en la ciudad de Santo Domingo, además de disminuir la contaminación ambiental, corregir las inundaciones en la Avenida Máximo Gómez y su entorno, disminuir el tiempo de los pasajeros para moverse de un lugar a otro y construir la avenida ecológica en la rivera del río Isabela con el material extraído de los túneles, lo cual beneficiará a una población de muy bajos recursos. Este es uno de los mejores beneficios sociales del proyecto.

Si por cada cinco kilómetros se estableciera un precio de RD$10 pesos, que no nos parece costo ni difícil colocar este sistema de tarifa, dado que es posible establecerse mediante un sistema computarizado -precio que actualmente se cobra en Caracas, Miami, Puerto Rico, por no mencionar ciudades europeas ni norteamericanos, asumiendo que el sistema moverá 200,000 pasajeros por día, funcionando 300 días al año, los ingresos serían de RD$3 mil millones de pesos. Si el costo operativo del proyecto, estimado en mano de obra, electricidad, limpieza, seguridad, reparaciones, material gastable y otros fuera del orden de los RD$1,000 millones al año –que no nos parece subvaluada la cifra- indica que la inversión de los RD$26,4 mil millones se recuperará en 26 años, tiempo que es factible haciendo el proyecto rentable. Y esto es sin incorporar los demás beneficios sociales que fueron descritos más arriba.
¿De que depende que esta inversión sea en la práctica rentable? En el sistema de administración que se elija para operar el metro. Ojalá se tenga la visión de escoger una firma privada que se encargue de su administración para convertir esta mega obra en una muestra más de que los dominicanos podemos. Ciudades como Caracas, Washington, Las Vegas son ejemplos de sistemas de metro eficiente que aun están funcionado sin disminuir la calidad de los mismos.

CLAVE DIGITAL

[Funnyyale26]

I feel we have to be careful when we make predictions because before the roads, expressways, boulevards were constructed everyone protested and claimed that it was not going to benefit the opulation, and now people are demanding that these things are constructed in their cities/provinces.

[Rick Snyder]

I see from the DR1 news today that the government is going to use 20 million dollars from the Verizon sale for housing projects in areas affected by the metro. Gee, is this part of the 550 million already talked about? Is this in addition?? Does this count toward the metro??? No …….. Can’t count toward the metro …….. Houses don’t transport people!

(Like the energizer bunny ……………)

[Don Juan]

Without getting too deeply involve in unnecessary details, Lets take a quick look at the transportation situation in DR today: It is antiquated, inefficient, dirty, uncomfortable, wasteful and counterproductive.

The kind of transport mode we have in place today, is what was used in cities of first-world countries prior to the installation of modern subway systems and railways.
As Santo Domingo inexorably grows, it must follow the same proven solutions to improving commuting, installed in other countries and must, by default, do away with the afore-mentioned, obsolete, air-polluting chatarras.

Regardless of the cost (and I won’t go there for now), these systems were what, for many nations, and will be for the DR, the only logical next step in modernizing mass transport. There’s no getting around it!! These are the only sensible, albeit expensive, alternatives to what’s in place today!!!

The rush to build the metro can only be justified by the sharp rise in the price of petroleum products. How much is a gallon of regular these days? USD$4.00? That’s a dollar, twenty cents more than I pay for here in Maryland!… I don’t like it. It’s stretching my budget longer than I care to!

But what about all those poor concho owners that pay more for gas but make way less $$$ than I? How will they cope, when it will inevitably rise to 5.00 and 6.00 per gallon? But more importantly, How will our nation cope with these astronomical prices?

Let’s get one thing perfectly clear, every dollar that goes to buy Chavez’s fuel, is one dollar less we’ll have for bettering our own society.

The emphasis here must be to conserve in every possible way, even if it means building a quixotic Metro that may or may not eventually do the job. But this metro is a must and regardless of it’s untimely launching and the lack of proper planning, It is a project whose time has come, whether we like it or not.