On foreigners and integration

[Ricardo900]

Originally Posted by Robert

How much can and should we integrate?
Is integration something we should *try* to do - or something that we should just let happen? Should foreigners look at their bank balances and try to emulate the norms of the Dominican social classes that equal them?

I personally socialize with numerous Dominicans in NYC, I get invited to social gatherings, I eat, talk, and drink with them. Everybody from the maintenance guys in my building, coworkers, bodega and restaurant owners, so naturally, I've picked up on some of their customs and language, it's just easier to interact with them when you know a little something about them.

Integration could come naturally, if you let it, but the more you strive, I believe the easier life would become while you live there. I say integrate and accept the good with the bad.

Of course, you should live within your means, leave the "Joneses" in the U.S., nothing wrong with upper-middle class.

Mi dos centavos

[jrf]

KateP, maybe the fact that we are Canadian, and I do believe more friendly and more well received than most other expats, but also that we do stand out as being different.
I believe that some of the reasons I stand out or am remembered is because I genuinely enjoy the RD and it's people.
Sharing the island pride per se.

[samanasuenos]

Robert said,

"How much can and should we integrate?
Is integration something we should *try* to do - or something that we should just let happen? ..."

1. I suspect you meant "assimilate."? Am I right?

2. To answer this interesting question, I would have to throw it back at you, kindly - "How much should immigrants to YOUR home country assimilate/integrate?

Thank you for a good topic, Samm

[samanasuenos]

The idea that 'assimilation' is knowing the bus drivers name or where to buy the warehouse deals on clothing amongst the locals is not the point.
Assimilating is being able to move and live within a new culture and be accepted.
For some of you that means being welcomed at the golf club and others it is that the Colmado gives you credit.

[xamaicano]

I have found that people's idea of "assimilation" is based on a person's perception of the country. Many expats or visitors who believe that living in and visiting the poorest parts of the DR makes for a more authentic experience as if being anything more than that makes a Dominican less authentic. Yet many of them would not dare live or visit the impoverished areas of the US or Europe. Most foriegners with the means would not opt to go to rural West Virginia or innercity Baltimore for a more "authentic" experience when they can stay or live in Manhattan. They don't rent apartments in the 'hood or marry into an Appalachian family. While both authentic american experiences not exactly destination spots. Yet a lot these same poeple would consider living in Santo Domingo or Santiago at a level that is comparable to their lives back home to be less of an authentic experience.

[NALs]

Originally Posted by xamaicano

I have found that people's idea of "assimilation" is based on a person's perception of the country. Many expats or visitors who believe that living in and visiting the poorest parts of the DR makes for a more authentic experience as if being anything more than that makes a Dominican less authentic. Yet many of them would not dare live or visit the impoverished areas of the US or Europe. Most foriegners with the means would not opt to go to rural West Virginia or innercity Baltimore for a more "authentic" experience when they can stay or live in Manhattan. They don't rent apartments in the 'hood or marry into an Appalachian family. While both authentic american experiences not exactly destination spots. Yet a lot these same poeple would consider living in Santo Domingo or Santiago at a level that is comparable to their lives back home to be less of an authentic experience.

You took the words out of my mouth... or should that be finger tips?

What you mentioned is something I have been wondering for a long time. I'm not sure why many people are like that, but I'm leaning more to this explanation:

Americans or Europeans, when visiting the DR, are excluded from the social norms given that they are tourists or outsiders. As such, they can get away with many things among the local population due to the reasoning that they are simply foreigners and don't know any better as far as the local culture and norms are concerned. On the foreigner side, they pretty much don't care what others think of them when visiting the DR because, quite frankly, they are not a part of that society and because of this, they sort of remain outside of Dominican culture and norms, even when they try to assimilate, they will always be considered outsiders or aplatanado, as in a foreigner that has acquired many Dominican habits, but such person is always regarded as a foreigner.

Back in the U.S. or Europe, these same foreigners are the locals. They have been taught from birth how their societies work, how the read the different signs (visible and otherwise) that limits a persons actions or decisions, consciously or subconsciously. To them, it matters what is thought of them by their society in their own country, much in the same way it matters to Dominicans in the DR, but once they leave the DR they become more relaxed in the way I've explained above.

Thus, an American that will never think of spending sometime with his poor counterparts, doesn't think twice prior to doing such while visiting the DR or some other country. Afterall, who cares! The only people whose opinion matters are the one's at home, not in this foreign country that they didn't even knew existed until the travel agent mentioned of the super all inclusive sale in Playa Dorada.

I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say here and I think it applies to most people from all countries, especially when such people travel abroad.

People travel to get away from the daily grind, from the familiar sights, and from the restraints imposed by society and to get away from the expectations that everyone has of him. When the person goes away, that person is free from all of that and that freedom allows that person to do things that in their own home countries they would think twice and thrice prior to doing such, more often deciding not to do such.

Hence, people travel thousands of miles to take picture with impoverished rural Dominicans but never in a million years do they visit the people living in the impoverished neighborhoods only minutes from their home in their home country.

I also wonder if guilt is involved as well. Its always easier to help people whose problems are perceived to have been created by someone else, rather than confront people whose problems are perceived to have been created either by you or by your ancestors.

I'll live it at this because this response is moving away from the topic of the thread, but what you posted is something I have been wondering for quite sometime.

-NALs

[Exxtol]

Originally Posted by xamaicano

Yet many of them would not dare live or visit the impoverished areas of the US or Europe. Most foriegners with the means would not opt to go to rural West Virginia or innercity Baltimore for a more "authentic" experience when they can stay or live in Manhattan. They don't rent apartments in the 'hood or marry into an Appalachian family. While both authentic american experiences not exactly destination spots. Yet a lot these same poeple would consider living in Santo Domingo or Santiago at a level that is comparable to their lives back home to be less of an authentic experience.

This is very interesting. The question I pose is why do we expect that to be the case? Why are Americans, Canadians, Europeans, etc., willing to associate with the lower classes in developing countries, but not in the industrialized world? This of course is a generalization, but tends to hold true. Does guilt play a factor? Location? Ignorance of cultural norms? A subconscious/conscious supremacy or belief of superiority over people in developing countries? This is a very interesting phenomenom and believe it is parallel to the topic of assimilation.

-Exxtol

[Matilda]

Originally Posted by Exxtol

This is very interesting. The question I pose is why do we expect that to be the case? Why are Americans, Canadians, Europeans, etc., willing to associate with the lower classes in developing countries, but not in the industrialized world?

Maybe it is because they are trying to get away from the level of Society of which they were a part. For example at the average dinner with friends when I lived in London the discussions were what car you drove, how much money you earned, and how much money your house was worth. And here having dinner with barrio friends or even middle class Dominicans it is a totally different experience. They have no preconception of you. They don't recognise your accent, they can't pidgeonhole you. You couldn't have done that in the UK. Maybe you could leave the traditional industrialised nation values behind if you went and joined a commune in your home country. Maybe that is what those foreigners who 'assimilate' here are doing - becoming part of a dominican commune!

But those of us who live here in amongst dominicans - married to them, live surrounded by them, only speak Spanish, we can integrate to a degree, but we will always be different. I will never spit, I will never like tostones, I don't scream and shout and scratch, I will always hate very loud music, I don't like lying, I like saving money for the future. But I hope I have been enriched by assimilating some values like being less pressured about things that don't really matter, living for today, laughing more, caring more and sharing more.

Matilda

[A.Hidalgo]

Originally Posted by Exxtol

This is very interesting. The question I pose is why do we expect that to be the case? Why are Americans, Canadians, Europeans, etc., willing to associate with the lower classes in developing countries, but not in the industrialized world? This of course is a generalization, but tends to hold true. Does guilt play a factor? Location? Ignorance of cultural norms? A subconscious/conscious supremacy or belief of superiority over people in developing countries? This is a very interesting phenomenom and believe it is parallel to the topic of assimilation.

Very interesting post indeed. The way I see it as long as you have financial resources to live comfortably in the DR, you will be perceived as someone that is superior to others. It may seem to be a very materialistic point of view, but when you are dealing with a country were poverty is seen just around every corner, money will give you that certain status. I mean the fact is what foreigner that relocates to the Dominican Republic expects to live like the average Dominican....none.

Integration is a beautiful and worthwhile endeavor, but the human dynamic is greatly influence with what's in the bank. Some use that status altruistically others as a power tool.

[johne]

This post is very interesting to me from the point of view of the all too many responses one receives right here from DR1 members to threads having to do with Living In The DR. ie: Very typical "What do you know you don't live here". Well this has bothered me for the longest time. Of course. I could respond-what do you know???1) You have no vote in local or national politics 2) How well do you know the culture of the rich, poor and middle class (if in fact there is one) 3) You don't speak the lanquage 4) You don't need to feel the pain of hunger in a barrio or the shorhten life due to poor health care, and on and on.

So,is living in an almost totally ex-pat community intergration? No, but is moving to Washington Heights in NYC intergration?
No. Do the greater majority of ex-pats have a wide variety of choices where to live in DR? I doubt it. With issues of security, communications, freindships, almost impossible.So, you are treated special in the eyes of the Domin ican people. Hard to avoid. You are special. Have money,cars, white,
and most important it's not your country.That makes you special especial the money part.

If you don't try to assimilate I think the situation gets worse.Then you are saying "My way of life is better than yours". Or,"I'll change things to do it my way". As an example I'll never forget when Mr. Smartee Pants opened a restaurant in Sosua and said -This will be the first smoke free restaurant in the DR. Well he must of gotten that idea from Mayor Bloomberg because he sure wasn't thinking about Dominican culture or for that matter Euros that might have gone to his now defunct rest.

After writing all of the above, I really don't know the answer to the quiz.
Need to see a few more responses that might have more insight.
john