Vehicles that run on alcohol (Ethanol?)

MrMike · #1 09-05-2005, 10:56 AM

I THINK this is the right forum for this thread,

During my very short stay in Brazil I noticed alot of vehicles there run on alcohol, and since I was told that some alcohol powered vehicles had supplimentary gasoline for starting up I wonder if it wouldn't be too hard to convert a gasoline engine to run on alcohol and if this might help soften the impact of the current "energy crisis".

Is this what "Ethanol" is?

Can it really be made from sugar cane?

Can a regular vehicle be made to run on it without replacing the engine?

How would it compare price-wise to gasoline?

Does anyone know?

windeguy · #2 09-05-2005, 04:49 PM

Ethanol is ethyl alcohol and is the same magic ingredient in Brugal and Presidente that so many of us crave.

There are times that ethanol is required to be added to gasoline in California. I think the percentage was kept to 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline to help the fuel cause less air pollution while not damaging the rubber parts of the fuel systems. I don't think the fuel can be pure ethanol. For example, the information below says you must have a flexible fuel vehicle (FFV) to run almost pure ethanol or E85:

This link has a list of vehciles that can run on E85. If not on the list, you cannot use E85:

http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php

Future Role of Ethanol

Ethanol is uniquely positioned to grow in importance as the nation continues its quest for renewable energy and new engine technologies.

E85: This blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent ordinary unleaded gasoline has become a rapidly growing alternative fuel since the dramatic increase in gas prices. Millions of vehicles on American highways can operate on E85. These flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs) can actually operate on E85, E-10 Unleaded, ordinary unleaded or any combination of these fuels. A computer in the fuel system automatically adjusts for the amount of ethanol in the blend.

The number of E85 fueling stations across the United States is growing at an accelerated rate—and U.S. automakers are manufacturing a larger number of FFVs.

Obviously, replacing 85 percent of the petroleum in a gallon of gasoline will help America wean itself from imported oil even faster—and create a greater demand for ethanol in the nation’s fuel supply.
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More information from what seems to be a left wing slanted source:

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/factfic_enperf.html

And if you have a VW

http://terrasol.home.igc.org/alky/alky.htm

More information on E10 ( gasoline with 10% ethanol blend) as promoted by the corn growers association.

http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/main/your_car.htm

tgood1 · #3 09-05-2005, 05:05 PM

Most newer model Ford Explorers and some other vehicles will run on E-85 (Ethanol/Gas mix) Unfortunatley it is only available in a couple of states in the US. The auto makers build certain cars to run on it to meet environmental standards, but you can't buy it in most places.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMike

I THINK this is the right forum for this thread,

During my very short stay in Brazil I noticed alot of vehicles there run on alcohol, and since I was told that some alcohol powered vehicles had supplimentary gasoline for starting up I wonder if it wouldn't be too hard to convert a gasoline engine to run on alcohol and if this might help soften the impact of the current "energy crisis".

Is this what "Ethanol" is?

Can it really be made from sugar cane?

Can a regular vehicle be made to run on it without replacing the engine?

How would it compare price-wise to gasoline?

Does anyone know?

Hlywud · #4 09-05-2005, 05:08 PM

Commercial grade alcohol made from corn, can be made from sugar cane.

It actually takes more energy to make it than it produces, we have 3 plants here in Ontario Canada and gasoline is blended with ethanol. One thing though it is a renewable resource.

windeguy · #5 09-05-2005, 05:31 PM

If it truly uses more energy to make the ethanol than the ethanol produces, it won't be practical to try making this in a location like the DR since electricity is our least available product here. Just the thought of oil based generators to create electricity to make ethanol from sugar cane at a net loss of energy doesn't sound like a great idea.

What does that E85 cost versus regular gas up in the Great White North?

Perhaps if nuclear power was used it could be done, but I will be long gone by the time that happens....

MICHIGANMICHAEL · #6 09-05-2005, 05:57 PM

actually you receive about (it will get better) 3 to 1 ratio on ethanol, Brazil has it refined to almost 8-1 from cane as it is more concentrated than corn. It can be made as well from sugar beets (sweet potatoes). We are getting ready to build a plant in Louisiana (near Katrina) that will be sugar cane based. A new corn fed plant will begin being built here in Michigan this fall with capacity of about 50,000.000 gallons per year, that will require 118,000 acres of corn. (good for our farmers) Brazil has this down pat & will soon be able to say bye bye to the middle east. I wish we could say that!!!

MM

MrMike · #7 09-05-2005, 06:43 PM

Windeguy, I think the idea of Ethanol taking more energy to make than it produces is not a direct reference to electricity but rather the general BTU's in terms of effort. I have spent a good portion of the morning looking into this on the internet and of course most of the information out there is provided by people with one of several possible axes to grind, but it does seem like a logical move and I cannot believe that as the technology develops it will continue to be so inefficient to produce. Gasoline in the DR and the cheapest Dominican rum are now close to the same price per gallon now, so if the volumes produced were equal it stands to reason that alcohol would finally be cheaper to produce than it is to import and refine gasoline. (which is hardly an effortless process either)

And indeed it does look like there are a lot of vehicles already on the road that can run on Ethanol, (they were designed this way out of foresight on the part of their manufacturers) and older cars with carburetors instead of fuel injection are relatively simple to convert, apparently.

The main problem seems to be that alcohol is a lot more corrosive than gasoline, and if the fuel system of a given vehicle is constructed with materials that cannot withstand the corrosive power of alcohol (like many plastics, and cork seals) then there could be significant problems resulting from filling your fuel tanks with alcohol.

I also discovered today that one of the hardcore geeks I subcontract repair work out that my shop can't handle has his house set up to run on a generator he converted to run on alcohol, for which he makes the alcohol himself with his own still and has in this way emancipated himself from the tyranny of EDNORTE.

There are still two reasons it is unlikely the use of alcohol will become widespread in the DR in the near future:

1) the government profits from Gasoline
2) the public transport mostly uses subsidized LP natural gas.

The government is much too dumb add 2 and 2 and realize that what they lose on gasoline they might save on LP natural gas by investing in Ethanol so enterprising individuals might benefit from Ethanol, but it is doubtful the DR as a country will.

Chris · #8 09-05-2005, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMike

I also discovered today that one of the hardcore geeks I subcontract repair work out that my shop can't handle has his house set up to run on a generator he converted to run on alcohol, for which he makes the alcohol himself with his own still and has in this way emancipated himself from the tyranny of EDNORTE.

I will pay this tech for this technology? How much? When, Where and How Soon! In the market for a still and for the alcohol! And the planta can have some too..

MrMike · #9 09-05-2005, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

I will pay this tech for this technology? How much? When, Where and How Soon! In the market for a still and for the alcohol! And the planta can have some too..

Like all hardcore geeks he is highly undependable. He has promised to fix every broken thing I own at some point or other and so far they are all still waiting for him.

I keep upping the offer for him to get my satellite TV running but I still don't know how much he's holding out for. My useless dish just keeps collecting rainwater and mosquito larvae.

Your best bet is to talk to him yourself. Hang out in my store for about 2 days and he will be by.

MICHIGANMICHAEL · #10 09-05-2005, 11:27 PM

A good point Mr. Mike, as here gas is selling (as of this morning in Rochester, Mi) @$2.97-3.19 per gal. My e-85 station is at $2.87 per gal for the ethanol product. I am no expert, but have talked with the people that build these units (we have supplied nearly ALL the high temp insulations for the Archer Daniel Midland units), and the only drawback here is to let the farmers run with the corn growing. Problem here is: the US government governs that commodity, and subsidizes that market. MOST people do not realize that you can buy a Ford F-150 to a Mercedes E 320 that will run on Both fuels, and there is no additional cost in doing so (www.doe.gov). Dept of Energy only promotes what it is allowed to. Here in the states 2.7 gallons of ethanol can be produced from a bushel of corn, the other part is that really NOTHING is lost, as the "multch" left over is great for cattle feed with no extra proccessing. Brazil has as well done a good job in converting diesel to bio-diesel (20% up to 100% non petrol based oil) from Palm oil. US has the ability as well with vegetable or soybean oil. I should point out that this technology has been around for nearly a hundred years, but we have always enjoyed cheap oil. Times are gonna change!!!!!!!!! But I like Chris' thought that...yes, it is almost as simple as a stil, but for multiple purposes.
MM