Needless Dominican Deaths

[Keith R]

Originally Posted by Nal0whs

For anyone not noticing, the thread is going off course.

Nals, if there is anyone in this thread hijacking, it is you. Please re-read the ORIGINAL POST. It talked about:

The polution entering the air by cars and motorcycles in such disgraceful condition is bringing premature death to thousands of Dominicans.

Not Saharan sand, not dust, not the DR's geography.

If you don't want to address the issue raised by the original poster, than refrain from posting. But further attempts by you or any other to go off on tangents from the OP's topic will be deleted, as per DR1 rules.

[LarrySpencer]

Originally Posted by Keith R

No, let's talk about the Dominican Republic, not California.

The Environment Forum Moderator

Yes, let's talk about the Dominican Republic.

Much of the gasoline in the Dominican Republic is imported from the United States, from the same refineries that provide gasoline for much of the east coast of the US, so comparing the two fuels in not a far stretch. And saying that fuel prices will definately increase if they put more efforts into providing cleaners fuel is also not a far stretch.

It is a fact that everytime they do something different with fuel, the cost is passed on to the consumers. I don't think there is a person in the world that could argue that point. Welcome to capitalis!

Therefore, using California as a prime example of what will happen if they begin enforcement like this is clearly legitimate...call it an anology if you will.

As far as the asthma topic....I will gracefully bow out of that discussion with this. Yes, it is true that air pollution can have an adverse effect on one's health. Air polution is closely related to poor running automobiles, but mostly industry, fires, and small engines. Automobiles, but their very design tend to not polute as much as the aformentioned, however do give off much pollution. Not to mention the pollution released through poor maintenance, it, oil and other fluids leaking...these find their way into aquifers, oceans, rivers, lakes and streams.

Another leading cause of air pollution is the creation of electricity. Tons of air pollution are created in order to produce just a few kWh electricity. There are so many factors involved that blaming it only on cars is the furthest stretch one can take, although I agree that they are a portion of the problem.

Until the next topic.....I'm out.

[Keith R]

Originally Posted by LarrySpencer

Yes, let's talk about the Dominican Republic.

Much of the gasoline in the Dominican Republic is imported from the United States, from the same refineries that provide gasoline for much of the east coast of the US, so comparing the two fuels in not a far stretch.

Interesting claim. Can you back it up with a reliable source? There is a paucity of good stats regarding the DR's trade, but I'd like to know where I can find such detailed information. Always willing to learn!

However, my understanding has always been that the great majority of gasoline consumed in the DR is from imported crude refined by the single government refinery complex, Refindomsa. According to the latest posted stats from Refindomsa, over 60% of their imported crude comes from Mexico, 15-18% from Venezuela, and the rest from "others."

So, unless I can find more reliable stats, yes, your assumption is open to question.

And saying that fuel prices will definately increase if they put more efforts into providing cleaners fuel is also not a far stretch.

Of course it's not. Who said otherwise? What I said is that you cannot compare Dominican costs with Californian costs, as you were doing. Heck, you cannot compare Californian costs with East Coast costs! The DR has a single refinery complex, geared to certain crude, in all likelihood different from that used for the California market. The DR market size and composition is different. The cost of labor and energy is different. And no one should assume that the DR will immediately shift to California norms for fuel quality! Heck, even Europe is only just getting to that point.

It is a fact that everytime they do something different with fuel, the cost is passed on to the consumers. I don't think there is a person in the world that could argue that point. Welcome to capitalis!

As I said, I don't think anyone suggested differently. It was just your choice of cost structures which was called into question.

Therefore, using California as a prime example of what will happen if they begin enforcement like this is clearly legitimate...call it an anology if you will.

But they are not analogous. I suggested, Costa Rica's cost and market structure might be analogous to the DR, but not California's. Maybe even Puerto Rico's cost structure might be analogous, although I would point out that PR still has to comply with EPA dictates, and as I said, no one thinks or argues that the DR will approximate EPA standards anytime soon.

So your choice of line of argument is not clearly legitimate, if legitimate at all. It is, in fact, dubious.

As far as the asthma topic....I will gracefully bow out of that discussion with this. Yes, it is true that air pollution can have an adverse effect on one's health. Air polution is closely related to poor running automobiles, but mostly industry, fires, and small engines. Automobiles, but their very design tend to not polute as much as the aformentioned, however do give off much pollution. Not to mention the pollution released through poor maintenance, it, oil and other fluids leaking...these find their way into aquifers, oceans, rivers, lakes and streams.

Again, you are talking about air pollution in the US, and my guess is, Southern California at that. Your lack of knowledge of DR conditions, or refusal to use that knowledge in this thread, is showing. For example, large numbers of vehicles -- automobiles, buses, trucks, motorcycles -- in the DR tend to be older models without the wonderful design you mention. And many imports have their catalytic converters disabled by their owners in the name of better gas mileage -- just ask on the board, they'll tell you. Those that do not remove or disable them remove them when they go bad, rather than pay to replace them. There is thriving market in this in the DR -- I know from talking to mechanics during my years living there. And as for maintenance of the pollution control systems -- HA!

I have been consistently told by government officials and environmental engineers that industry emissions are a relatively small component of air pollution in Santo Domingo and Santiago, the two main population centers. The reason being is that the industries most likely to produce air discharges of significance are absent in the DR economy. Again, if you have data on the DR that suggests otherwise, I welcome it.

Fires are intermittingly a factor, as I indicated with my reference to the Duquesa burning, but they are not the regular component you suggest. Perhaps in Southern Calif. they are, but not in Santo Domingo.

If by small engines you are referring to plantas, then I agree, and this was mentioned by the OP and others as a contributing factor. But if you meant lawnmowers and other two-cycle engines (as is the case for VOC emissions in the Air District in S. Calif.), you are off the mark with regard to the Dominican market & environment.

Another leading cause of air pollution is the creation of electricity. Tons of air pollution are created in order to produce just a few kWh electricity. There are so many factors involved that blaming it only on cars is the furthest stretch one can take, although I agree that they are a portion of the problem.

I'll grant you the point about electricity generation. Some of the generating plants are doubtless significant contributors -- in their locales. Whether the ones located outside SD but providing the SD grid have their discharges blown over the city, I cannot say with any certainty and I doubt you can either.

I understood what the original poster meant because I have had to sit through more traffic jams in the DR than I can count, and what I breathed in made me, my daughter and other asthmatics sick. It wasn't too bad while I had the air conditioning running. But when it broke down and I had to travel around town with the windows down all the time for a couple of weeks, the difference it made on the lungs of myself and my daughter was significant and clear. Same for when I was at home in my relatively quiet neighborhood. To argue that vehicle (notice I say vehicle, not just automobile) emissions are not a leading contributor in the DR to air pollution and concomitant health problems is, frankly, to deny the Dominican reality.

[HOWMAR]

Originally Posted by Keith R

However, my understanding has always been that the great majority of gasoline consumed in the DR is from imported crude refined by the single government refinery complex, Refindomsa. According to the latest posted stats from Refindomsa, over 60% of their imported crude comes from Mexico, 15-18% from Venezuela, and the rest from "others."

.

And in fact the Venezuelan crude is of such high sulfur content, it cannot be imported to the US.

[Porfirio]

The commentary observed in this discussion indicates interest in finding ways for us to breath clean air, and maintain our health. To introduce into this topic so many other inadequacies in the DR is OK. We cannot prioritize by claiming what should be number 1 or 2. Progress is necessary in education, which is so lacking that our children are for all practical purposes not being educated. Medical Care & Hospitals are in dire need of emergency ¨first aid¨due to corrupted elected officials who simply do not care. Just yesterday an international organization published the 10 most corrupt Countries, which included Chad in Africa, and our neighbor Haiti. The DR fell just out of the top 10, but to many the DR is corrupt beyond description. That my friends is the reason that the DR is still classified as a 3rd world country with a disastrous education system, no postal service, unreliable electric service, thieves running the banks, police involved in drugs & auto theft, a failing health care program, dirty water and air we must drink and breath into our bodies. And two political parties who vie to outdo each others courrupt conduct. Our ¨leaders¨fail to recognize the 50 Domincans who drowned this week while trying to enter Puerto Rico, or the 150 Dominicans who were arrested while on a boat for Puerto Rico. Our ¨leader¨is more concerned with an island off the Malecone, or subway that will cost billions.

[Conchman]

Originally Posted by HOWMAR

And in fact the Venezuelan crude is of such high sulfur content, it cannot be imported to the US.

I thought the US gets a percentage of its oil from Venezuela, I am sure I read that somewhere recently.

[HOWMAR]

Originally Posted by Conchman

I thought the US gets a percentage of its oil from Venezuela, I am sure I read that somewhere recently.

Yes, but a better grade than is imported into the DR. In fact a recent shipment from Venezuela to the DR was found to be even too inferior for DR standards and was rejected at the port.

[LarrySpencer]

Good afternoon fellow DR1ers

Keith, I thought about you yesterday when I pulled into a Kentucky Fried Chicken drive-through behind a vehicle with grey exhaust pouring out from it's tailpipe. I didn't have asthma before, but I'm not far from it now.

Let's go over what we have been discussing. Yes, Keith, you are correct in your statement regarding oil, including imported oil when it is in regards to the Government owned portion of the oil business, which accounts for 50%. The other 50% is Shell (England). The US run companies include Texaco, now Chevron/Texaco, and Esso Standard, also known as Exxon. At this time, their market share is unknown, at least until I recieve results back from Texaco.

Yes, Chavez has certainly done his part in making importing oil from Venezuela as appealing as possible. His fuel is running somewhere around $40 per barrel, as opposed to the US's $65-70. In addition he has sweetened the deal by making it possible for governments to pay with other commodities such as kidney beans, which the Dominican is more than able to provide.

Has anyone ever stopped to think why fuel in the Dominican Republic is more expensive than in the US, especially if they are only paying $40 per barrel, or through trade? This touches on Porfilio's discussion of corruption, I'm sure....or just the fact that if you're the only game in town you can pretty much charge whatever you want...back to the capitalism thing....

What I said is that you cannot compare Dominican costs with Californian costs, as you were doing. Heck, you cannot compare Californian costs with East Coast costs!

My point was never to compare the Dominican costs with California costs directly, but rather to demonstrate what happened with prices in California when they went to cleaner fuels. What you were suggesting for the Dominican Republic will have the same affect on prices, it will drive them up even more. And like I said earlier, if I were to compare prices, I would actually have to raise the price California pays just to make it match the price paid in the Dominican Republic for 1 gallon of gas...by the way, we just dropped down to $2.70 per gallon in Modesto. That's what, about 85DP?

Again, you are talking about air pollution in the US, and my guess is, Southern California at that. Your lack of knowledge of DR conditions, or refusal to use that knowledge in this thread, is showing. For example, large numbers of vehicles -- automobiles, buses, trucks, motorcycles -- in the DR tend to be older models without the wonderful design you mention. And many imports have their catalytic converters disabled by their owners in the name of better gas mileage -- just ask on the board, they'll tell you. Those that do not remove or disable them remove them when they go bad, rather than pay to replace them.

This is unbelieveable! Could you imagine someone actually disabling the smog system on a vehicle? Removing smog pumps, belts, sensors, valves, catalytic converter, removing manifold tubes and then cutting and welding to make them fit for bypassing? Like I said, unbelieveable....someone might just be able to get a little more power out of a vehicle, or at least a little more gas mileage if there did that! Of course it's a big business, much bigger in the states, though. Especially with all these street racers and drifters.

Yes, the vehicles in the DR tend to be old and spew out a lot of exhaust...I've already agreed with that. Fires...I'm not talking about forest fires. It may not happen as often in Santo Domingo, but in other regions people burn their trash, creating and releasing a wide variety of pollutants into the air.

Yes, by small engines I mean plantas and various implements...chainsaws, etc., but definately not lawnmowers. I know there couldn't possibly be a single one in the entire DR. Don't limit yourself, I'm talking about ALL small engines, whether they be in generators, tools, pumps, go carts, light stands, etc. The combined activity of all is what I refer to.

Ok....Now I know that there is an unwritten rule somewhere that reads something like: When one conceads an argument, it's best to just accept and keep one's opinions to themselves from that point on....

More Reasons:

Heat Waves and Asthma - http://blogs.health.yahoo.com/expert...ves-and-asthma
Posted by Franklin Adkinson, M.D.
on Thu, Aug 04, 2005, 8:25 pm PDT Post a Comment
As I endure this sweltering heat wave in Baltimore and read about the heat-related deaths in Arizona, I’m reminded of how asthma can be triggered by protracted heat and all that it brings. It’s not so much the heat itself but the air inversions that result from heat waves that aggravate asthma. These inversions, in which a layer of warm air is trapped by cooler air above, can increase the amount of toxic air pollutants by more than tenfold.

These harmful oxidants and particles make breathing even harder for persons with asthma and other chronic respiratory conditions -- not because there are more allergens in the air, but because anything that increases the twitchiness of the airways can increase our sensitivity to what we are allergic to, like Grandma’s cat, dust mites, or molds (tends to grow where it is damp).

If you have asthma and wonder when it’s all going to end, stay in air-conditioned comfort as much as possible and get your exercise in the swimming pool or at an air-conditioned gym. Your local weather channel’s air pollution alert can give you daily updates about the quality of the air you can expect in your community. And stay ahead of the game by drinking lots of fluids. Heat and all that comes with it can kill. Hot weather deserves healthy respect, especially from people with heart and lung diseases.

What are asthma triggers?

An asthma trigger is a factor that can decrease lung function and lead to sudden difficulty breathing (acute asthma episode). When you are around a trigger, you are at increased risk for an asthma episode. A severe episode may mean you have to go to the hospital.

Some triggers are substances you may be allergic to (allergens). Allergens cause the body's natural defenses (immune system) to produce chemicals called immunoglobulin E (IgE) antibodies. These chemicals bind to allergens, causing inflammation of the bronchial tubes. The allergen may also cause asthma episodes. Triggers may include:

House dust mites.
Cockroaches.
Animal dander.
Indoor mold.
Pollen.
Other triggers can cause asthma symptoms without affecting the body's immune system. These include:

Cigarette smoke and air pollution.
Viral infections, such as colds and flu, and sinus and other upper respiratory infections.
Exercise. Many people with asthma have symptoms when they exercise.
Dry, cold air.
Strong expressions of emotion, such as laughing or crying.
Medications, such as aspirin.
In adults, hormones, including those involved in pregnancy and menstrual periods (just before or during periods).
Gastrointestinal reflux disease (GERD). Some experts debate whether GERD makes asthma worse. Studies have shown conflicting results as to whether GERD triggers asthma. 1

Yes, it includes air pollution - Ban the vehicles, besides, walking is much better for us anyways!

[LarrySpencer]

Originally Posted by Conchman

I thought the US gets a percentage of its oil from Venezuela, I am sure I read that somewhere recently.

Venezuela owns Citgo, with 14,000 stations and 8 oil refineries...

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0918-24.htm

[Keith R]

Larry,
Yes, Shell owns part of the refinery. So what? But that does not change the source of the DR's gasoline. The Refindomsa refinery refines what the DR imports, and what the DR imports is mostly crude from Mexico and Venezuela; just because Shell is a Dutch-British congolmerate (not just English, as you say), does not mean that 50% of the oil refined by Refindomsa is Dutch or British sourced, does it? The Shell comment frankly has nothing to do anything in this discussion.

So, it seems, you cannot back up your prior contention that most of the gasoline sold in the DR is from East Coast US refineries. I suspected as much.

Petroven may own Citgo, but that also has nothing to do with the DR whatsoever. BTW, FYI, Venezuela sought an exemption from EPA blending rules so that Citgo would not be put at a competitive disadvantage in the US market. It seems that Venezuelan-based refineries could not handle Citgo demand for gasoline meeting EPA specs, and would have to actually source their gasoline from other refineries. So even if Venezuela was directly shipping finished gasoline to the DR, I somehow suspect that it would not meet Californian fuel standards.

Actually, you did try to argue that comparing the cost impact of regulatory measures in California to what regulatory measures in the DR would cost was a reasonable comparison. And I repeat, too many factors differ to make it a meaningful comparison. Yeah, sure, regulatory measures impose costs. We all knew that without the California example. But if we're going to discuss probable magnitude of the cost impact, California is not the analogy to pick.

Incredible or not, sensible or not, emissions systems are disabled in Dominican workshops daily in large numbers. Just another Dominican reality.

Yes, I agree about the trash burning, and in fact have mentioned that factor several times in this same thread.

As for small motors, I think you'll find that there are not that many power saws, go carts and the like in the DR -- probably not much more than there are lawnmowers, which are few and far between. In all likelihood, backdoor BBQ's emit more VOCs than these put together -- the plantas aside, that is. They are a pollution category unto themselves.

Yes, there are many factors going into asthma. But of these, which has increased dramatically over the last ten years, right along with the dramatic uptick in asthma cases in Santo Domingo? You guessed it: ambient air pollution, of which vehicle emissions are a leading contributor. A direct correlation? I can't prove it yet. No decent studies by environmental health authorities, although I am told some are planned with help from PAHO/WHO. Hope so. I think the data might shake some policymakers into thinking twice about the consequences of inaction, but then again, I tend to be an optimist.

No one has argued that cars be banned, Larry. No need to be so melodramatic. There are plenty of cost-effective options that other Latin American nations are trying, some with success. It would be difficult to adapt them to the Dominican realities, but I think not impossible or cost-prohibitive. It's do-able if there is the vision, political will and determination to attempt it.

My dos centavos,
Keith