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  #111  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:21 PM
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Keith R Level 2 Keith R Level 2 (119)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobraboy View Post
Well, I'm glad we cleared that up.

Now feel free to quote something from the New Republic or The Nation. Chris already beat you to the Center for American Progress, the group that YOU respect...
I don't read those two publications, and I have never quoted from the Center for American Progress on this or any other issue. Not even sure what their position might be.

You assume... again.
  #112  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith R View Post
I don't read those two publications, and I have never quoted from the Center for American Progress on this or any other issue. Not even sure what their position might be.

You assume... again.
You didn't read Chris's earlier post about them?

I ~assume~ when someone posts in a thread, they have read the ENTIRE thread.

I guess you are correct. I assumed incorrectly. Mea Culpa...
  #113  
Old 12-01-2007, 11:01 PM
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Keith R Level 2 Keith R Level 2 (119)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobraboy View Post
You didn't read Chris's earlier post about them?

I ~assume~ when someone posts in a thread, they have read the ENTIRE thread.

I guess you are correct. I assumed incorrectly. Mea Culpa...
Sure I read Chris' earlier posts about them. Doesn't mean I can or will quote from them. I'm not Chris and contrary to what you wish to portray, we are not twins nor telepathically connected. You said I should feel free to quote from them, as if I could/would.

Nice dancing, Cobra, but another presumption about me down the tubes.
  #114  
Old 12-01-2007, 11:07 PM
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Keith R Level 2 Keith R Level 2 (119)
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Chris, for all his whining about heavy-handed moderation, he has had more posts, more lines, and more pages on this subject than anybody else on DR1. In this thread alone he is over 50 posts, not even counting the ones I was forced to delete. You are a distant second at 36.

Unfortunately, in my 3 yrs as moderator, I have found that the ones that complain most loudly about "heavy-handed moderation" or "censorship" usually are the very ones who have been given the most opportunity to speak and abused it and forced moderation to occur -- usually because they did things they were previously asked (often repeatedly) not to do.
  #115  
Old 12-01-2007, 11:52 PM
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Wow! I'm really in y'alls head, rent free!

Wasn't my intent, gang. I want to discuss the incomplete, inaccurate, agenda-driven, fallacious myth of Man Made Global Warming. I realize the OP wanted to discuss how the incomplete, inaccurate, agenda-driven, fallacious myth of Man Made Global Warming affects the DR, but isn't vetting a premise an intellectually honest exercise?

I'd say the conversation has been "spirited". I'd say opposing views have been presented. I'd be willing to bet that those who have been lurking this thread have actually learned something with the links and concepts that have been presented that challenges the prevailing orthodoxy. At least that's the impression I'm getting via PM's.

I "believe" men make better decisions when exposed to the totality of facts and opinions, that educated and aware folks make for a clearer thinking society, one that makes better decisions for all. I also "believe" that censorship is used when the censors don't want folks to be fully informed.

Wouldn't you both agree about exposure to more information being better for society, and exposure to a variety of ideas makes minds stronger?
  #116  
Old 12-02-2007, 12:02 AM
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Keith R Level 2 Keith R Level 2 (119)
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As I have said before, for all your whining cries of censorship, you have said far more than anyone in this thread and have had little censored, and most of it not substance. So drop the victim act. It got old long ago.

This thread is closed for the evening, to reopen when I return to the computer tomorrow (Sunday 02 Dec) morning. Or if Robert wants to re-open it and monitor himself before then, fine by me.
  #117  
Old 12-02-2007, 01:03 AM
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Robert Level 4 Robert Level 4 Robert Level 4 (296)
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The moderators set the agenda and tone of this forum, period.
If you have a problem with that, I suggest you stop posting in this forum.

If anyone rants about the UN, Chavez, Bush or anything that is not 100% environment related, consider your access to this forum terminated.

Is that clear enough, of would you like me to type it in BIG letters?

Sometimes it feels like I'm herding cats!

Last edited by Keith R; 12-03-2007 at 03:37 PM.
  #118  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:05 AM
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bob saunders Level 1 (24)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
cobraboy, keep out of this thread. Any more posts and they will be deleted by me.

The moderators set the agenda and tone of this forum, period.
If you have a problem with that, I suggest you stop posting in this forum.

If anyone rants about the UN, Chavez, Bush or anything that is not 100% environment related, consider your access to this forum terminated.

Is that clear enough, of would you like me to type it in BIG letters?

Sometimes it feels like I'm herding cats!
The OP started with: "The three working groups of the IPCC has given three reports on the impact of global warming and the result, climate change. Since the IPCC received the Nobel Prize a few months ago, together with Al Gore, the scientists involved seemed to have taken their gloves off."end of Quote. A dissenting view was offered. OP immediately got sarcastic and then received in kind. As I can't see the posts that got deleted, I can't comment on those, but of the ones I've seen it seems to be a trade off on which side is being obstructionist. One thing I can see after reading through the entire PDF on the IPCC is that there are alot of may, could, likely, might, most likely and no has, is, will. This tells me that this is a theory that is being presented as facts.
  #119  
Old 12-02-2007, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob saunders View Post
One thing I can see after reading through the entire PDF on the IPCC is that there are alot of may, could, likely, might, most likely and no has, is, will. This tells me that this is a theory that is being presented as facts.
In the full report, the use of these words specifically is in the Glossary in order to have a standard language to express degrees of certainty and uncertainty. What I posted, was a summary or synthesis of three reports - it is meant to synthesize the main findings from the three previously published reports and does not itself contain any supporting information. I then copied out findings from the summary that are specifically for our area - Latin America and the Caribbean.

The supporting information and science basis can be found in the full report which is in three sections:
1. The Physical Science Basis
2. Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability
3. Mitigation of Climate Change

Here is the language from the Glossary

Degree of confidence
in being correct
Very high confidence and High Confidence - at least 9 out of 10 chance of being correct
Medium confidence - about 8 out of 10 chance
Low confidence - about 5 out of 10 chance
Very low confidence - about 2 out of 10 chance

Likelihood
Virtually certain >99% probability of occurrence
Very likely >90% probability
Likely >66% probability
More likely than not >50% probability
About as likely as not 33 to 66% probability
Unlikely <33% probability
Very Unlikely <10% probability
Exceptionally unlikely <1% probability

This process of reporting has been going on since 1990 when the IPCC's First Assessment Report was published.
Then the Second Assessment Report was published in 1995
Again, the IPCC Third Assessment Report of 2001
And now the Fourth Assessment Report of 2007

Note that it is the role of the IPCC to assess specifically human induced climate change. It is their job to figure out whether climate change can be attributed to human action. Then their job is to assess the risk, the potential impacts and the options.

Besides the Assessment Reports a range of other special reports were published. Some of them specifically applicable to our area of the world, specifically two, Land Use, Change and Forestry, and The Regional Impacts of Climate Change: An Assessment of Vulnerability.

Note that this is new to all of us. Mankind has never done this and on this scale. It has become highly politicized with countries jockeying for position and organizations inside of countries trying to exploit this to their benefit. There is very little literature free of political bias. I see that Keith prefers the terminology 'climate change' and I prefer 'climate change as a result of global warming'. Keith and I are not in cahoots. Part of this, is his job and the way he makes a living. I come to this from a lifelong interest in ecology and specifically food based systems .. how people interact with the environment in order to produce food.

This is becoming too long, but for those who want to know .. What are we doing personally.
We eat organic.
We are not totally vegetarian but we do not have a lot of meat.
If we have meat, we know where it comes from. We understand the food production from where it is grown, up to our table.
This last summer, I had an agreement with a community supported organic farmer .. I took all her produce that she could not take to market, and I processed it. The processed food (bottled, dried or fermented and bottled) were offered to the community that support the farm at cost. In this way, we used the excess or the produce not 'pretty' enough for market and benefited our local community.
We drive a smaller car and have a ride-share amongst the local community. No-one in this community drives alone but we plan our journeys so that two or three people can take the same journey.
For purchasing, we're trying a '100-year' rule. We're buying only that which will last 100 years, or is completely bio-degradable. This is an eye opener and of course it is not very successful, but it serves as a learning process for this community where I find myself temporarily. The purchase of a new computer really is a difficult thing and it forces one to think!

Personally my belief in life is don't harm the earth because my food comes from there, enrich the earth, compost, do companion planting on a permaculture basis, don't use excessively, purchase only from like-minded people, eat locally and support a local community cooperative. Reduce waste, so, if I go grocery buying we take our own bags and we don't buy if the purchase is going to cause unnecessary waste or excess packaging. I recycle all bottles and use it for canning and storing. Re-use .. this community has a informal bottle exchange so, if someone wants to make say wine .. all of us donate our bottles. Where possible, we buy from bulk stores bringing our own glass containers (oils, grains, vinegars, peanut butter and such stuff). We've taken out all plastics in our house. (My father-in-law was to a great extent a pioneer in the plastics and oil by-products industry, so, this led to some very interesting conversations).

This past year we used air travel way too much and this coming year this will be reduced. So, this is what we're doing personally. At some stage I can outline the benefits and what we've found changed in our lives.

For the DR and the area around it? That conversation is still outstanding.
  #120  
Old 12-02-2007, 11:43 AM
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As an engineer and someone who actually is required by law to protect the environment and who spends many hours every year designing stormwater management systems that keep our water clean I think I am qualified enough to say that I care about our environment and this topic interests me. As a scientist familiar with the scientific process I don't feel that the global warming agenda has passed sufficiently the peer review process given a variety of factors to include that periods of relatively high and low surface temperatures of the earth have occurred without the influence of man.

Last edited by Keith R; 12-03-2007 at 03:38 PM.
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