see how far i can get with this one before i am blasted.....

[bochinche]

first;
usually at about 5-6pm every evening, many of the dominicans i work with have put in a good solid hard day's work - usually for a fair (as fair as dominican can be) wage. most of these people range between the ages of 18 to 25. some are married and many have children (their own families). many of these people sacrifice any time with their families to go home have a shower, get changed and then head off to school or university, all paid for by their weekly wage.

second;
i know of quite a few dominican families who have worked very hard to save a few cheles, only to have had a family tragedy happen. maybe a vehicle accident, a very sick (dying) relative, a pregnancy gone wrong. those few cheles are then used towards medical expenses, which if the family is not careful, they could be paying off for a long time. in extreme circumstances, the medical authorities will actually hold families to ransom until those bills are paid.

we know these two situations are very common in the dominican republic and even though most of us would agree it is not very fair, there is not much we can do about it.
i believe education and medical attention should be the two most important things to be considered in the d.r. and every dominican should have the right to receive both, free, as in most countries in the world.

wouldn't it be great if someone came to the dr to hand out 'left-wing' literature that might help to promote dominicans to stop acting like sheep and to recognise what should be rightfully theirs?

[bob saunders]

Quote: i believe education and medical attention should be the two most important things to be considered in the d.r. and every dominican should have the right to receive both, free, as in most countries in the world.

wouldn't it be great if someone came to the dr to hand out 'left-wing' literature that might help to promote dominicans to stop acting like sheep and to recognise what should be rightfully theirs?[/quote]


Do Doctors, nurses and teachers get paid? So if you are going to have quality free education and medical care someone is going to have to foot the bill. This means increased taxes, increased by alot. Are you willing to fork out 40-50% of your hard earned dollars, so some lazy bAST...D can have a free education and get liposuction for free.

[Tony C]

Last time I checked public schools in the DR were free. Sadly many do not take advantage of it for various reasons.
Socialized medicine can only function(barely) in countries with strong, robust economies such as those in Western Europe, Canada and some Asian Countries. I know of no third world nation in which socialized medicine is a sucess. Do not say Cuba where if you don't have Dollars or a family member in Miami sending you medicine you have to be on a waiting list for pennicillin. Of course the best situation is to have a Robust economy and private Healthcare like in the US!
Personally I never considered education or healthcare a "Right"! Life and Liberty? Yes! Free mamograms and computer classes? Nope!

[PICHARDO]

You can go ahead and try to do that and hand out those flyers and spend a sizable time of your stay in RD in the floor of "La Victoria" eating God knows what for chow and sharing your behind quite often, Listen the RD do offers free schooling to the entire population of have-nots, high school included, they have some major Hospitals in the biggest cities in the country's interior, free children's Hospitals as the Arturo Grullon in Santiago, the problem it's not much of the offering but the low quality of service not due to the caregivers but the inability of the state to maintain and resupply these institutions with actual goods even an aspirin it's hard to come by some times due to shortages, unlike Cuba the major lab's medicinal concoctions have all but disappeared in recent years, when you take under consideration that major manufactures of alcohol in the case of Bermudez whom owned and operated one of the oldest alcohol production plants in the Cibao region jumped the market, and nowadays imports their alcohol needs within a collective of the industry buying a tanker of the stuff every so often, they used to resell their unused alcohol to the Gov. at a preferential price which in return supplied to the various Hospitals and the likes free of charge, that's gone since about 5 or 6 years ago.

Just like any other developing nation the RD does have their huge financial troubles not in small part to the misadministration of the resources and industry and a little help from corruption here and there (to put it mildly) but most families tend to rely on their savings for catastrophes as one poster here indicated, coming to your main offering about the distribution of leaflets and literature to make the RD population aware of these needs and rights, well let's just say they know it all too well, since the fall of Lilis to be more exact, but the actual regime, oops sorry!, the actual administration has it's hands full at the moment with reelection expenses, after that they have to get ready for the next election to be able to extend the amount of time they spend out of jail on corruption charges by the new administration (something of a folklore there) on a more serious note literature awareness distributors and eloquent public orators are still shown in milk cartons: have you seen this person?, I wouldn't recommend it unless you had a signed letter from the Prez himself to impart the most care and service to the carrier of the letter, just make sure it's not written with invisible ink, that wouldn't be too good for your health.

Unlike many others here, I was born in the RD even money can't do much for you if you become a threat to those in powerful positions, it's that simple.

If you study the RD democracy you'll figure out that it's a very well orchestrated symphony to which you can attend always that you learn your place in the auditorium.

[XanaduRanch]

Originally Posted by bochinche

... i believe education and medical attention should be the two most important things to be considered in the d.r. and every dominican should have the right to receive both, free, as in most countries in the world ... what should be rightfully theirs?

People who express opinions such as yours tend to perceive that "society" has rights. I believe that the individual has rights and that "society" is an abstract invention that should have no power over the individual.

What you are not saying, or ignoring, is that if everyone in that group, country, society, etc. has a "right" to free medical care as an example, then every individual in that group has a "right" to the money, income, earnings, and possessions of all the other individuals in the group. So in order for everyone to have that "right" they absolutely must give up what I consider to be their most precious right, the right to be free.

Beyond that basic indignity that everyone and their families must be robbed of what they work hard for everyday whether they agree to help provide for the "right" to free medical care of all the others or not, it just doesn't work for the same reason the Soviet economy was always relgated to second class status. There is no one, absolutely no one, on this entire planet, in Washington, Moscow, or Santo Domingo who cares more about your health or your child's health than you do, the parent. So when you seperate the person paying for the service from the person receiving the service there is no incentive for anyone in the system to do a good job anymore. Incompetent doctors thrive, and the good ones stop being doctors and move on to something that pays better. The sad truth, shown over and over, and over again worldwide is that that is the end result of socialized medicine.

When a rich politician, or busisness man is ill and in need of treatment they don't fly to Canada or Britain for help.They go to the United States.

I would have absolutely no problem with you banding together with all like minded indivuals to provide for yourselves free health care, as long as anyone who doesn't want to take part can say 'no' and be left alone. As in, I'm not going to pay for your free healthcare, and I will pay for mine own, thankyou. I am willing to bet that's unacceptable to you, though.

Besides, we already have such a system in place! It's called Health Insurance. Try it sometime!

Tom aka XR I hate when my hand falls asleep! I know it'll be up all night.

P.S.
As M.F. pointed out in another thread, and TonyC has stated here, free services are available here in the DR and many do not use them. Additionally, do you really want people like Blady in charge of the vast amounts of money required to pay for such a system? They have one now. Check DR1 news. The doctors are running weekly strikes. PAtients are paying for their own medicine at so-called 'free' hospitals. Why? Once again because the government here promises to subsidize something, in this case medicine and health care, but instead pockets the money to pay for it, and pays with a rubber check. What you describe as a 'right' already exists here. Look at the mess.

[Chirimoya]

I'm perfectly willing to pay higher taxes, as I did in the UK, if it means that all people will have access to decent health and education. Not only do I believe that these are basic human rights, it is also difficult to challenge the fact that the whole of society benefits when there is no impoverished underclass, and how better to achieve this than by providing free health and education? Having said that, I have to agree with those who point out that the DR does not have the conditions in place for this to happen. The reality here demonstrates that there have to be major changes in the workings of the system and its officials before people would entrust larger chunks of their income to the state for it to administer effectively.

One point I disagree with is that state-employed professionals are by definition inferior. My father is a retired doctor (an excellent one, it goes without saying) who always resisted the pressure to work in the private sector, believing medicine to be a vocation in itself and not something that should be motivated by profit. I know of many others like him both in the teaching and medical professions. There are incompetent doctors and teachers across both the private and public sectors.

Again, having said that, I have some sympathy with the argument that those who choose to 'go private' can do so if they wish.

To the question of distributing left wing leaflets? I think the poster, in asking that question, showed that he had not done much thinking or research. Who just lands in a country to distribute leaflets without sounding out local like-minded organisations first? Had he done so, he would have got all the information he wanted from the many left-wing organisations that exist here, and checked whether there was any relevance or need for his message, as well as the legality of it.

BTW Isn't it funny that all these right-wingers are cheering on a candidate whose roots in left-wing philosophy are no secret? That they abhor the President, whose political origins are from the conservative side of the spectrum? I know that right and left mean little these days in party politics, particularly Dominican party politics, but the irony remains.

How many posters here blast Dominicans for their passivity in the face of government abuses? Wouldn't it be a good thing if there was a little more resistance?

Chiri

[MrMike]

Some of the posts in this thread are pretty long and boring, so sorry if I am echoing something someone already said, but poor Dominicans already get electricity for free and propane for almost nothing, they get basic education for free and I believe there are still universities operating here that charge less than a dollar a credit.

We all know these things cost money so somebody somewhere is eventually going to have to pay for them, chances are most of the people reading this are paying a good part of it, with their highest in the world electric rates (and worst service) the high import duties opn everything usefull, 12.5% sales tax, etc.

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

This is a great thread. Bochinche and Chiri apply their liberal philosophies to this Dominican problem. XR applies his libertarian/Ayn Rand one. (And Tony C. his Miami-Cuban philosophy, which need not be particularly deep because it is essentially "Reaganite".)

My philosophy is more "liberal", but from the free market sense. Countries mature politically and economically and, as they mature, they can make decisions on what degree of liberalism works for them. In my opinion, the socialist type social systems of Europe and Canada would never work in the US (where there is less community cohesion), so, though cradle to grave welfare is a nice thing, it would quickly bankrupt the US.

The DR is at least a decade away from making these decisions. His Baldness' attempt to introduce social security was a joke - spoon fed to him by the international socialist organization to which the PRD belongs. It's like asking a starving five-year-old to run the 4-minute mile.

The DR first and foremost needs to create wealth and distribution of wealth in accordance with a modern democractic economy. Once there is wealth and distribution of wealth, there can be a "social surpluss". And only when there is a "social surpluss" can we even talk about things like recreating the public healthcare system.

The current system in the DR is the "administration of poverty" - fueled by World Bank and IMF policies that pay government leaders to do just that. It is New World Order stagnation. Perhaps "administration of misery" is a better title. For there to be hope, either the DR or the New World Order must reform. The leaders of neither have much incentive right now to do so.

Without economic and political reform, all social programs in the DR will continue to be a joke.

[bob saunders]

Socialized medical systems like in Canada are money pits which consume about 45% of every tax dollar and still have huge waiting lists, but to say that the doctors are inferior isnot true. There are some advantages of such a system as many american seniors have found out(cheaper drugs)...etc. The Dominican Republic will never be able to afford such a system, especially with the goverment pocketing most of the money.
You get what you pay for(nothing for nothing) When my wife was attending UASD(1980s) she had to learn Fortran,......etc, without having Computers to work on, inferior textbooks, as well as other less than ideal conditions. To compare even a community college here in Canada is laughable. Only the quality of instruction might(maybe) be comparable.

[XanaduRanch]

Originally Posted by bob saunders

Socialized medical systems like in Canada are money pits which consume about 45% of every tax dollar and still have huge waiting lists, but to say that the doctors are inferior isnot true. There are some advantages of such a system as many american seniors have found out(cheaper drugs)...etc. The Dominican Republic will never be able to afford such a system, especially with the goverment pocketing most of the money.
You get what you pay for(nothing for nothing)

It's a couple of fine points, but 1) I was not saying that all of the doctors were incompetent. However it's difficult to argue that such a system does not reward mediocrity and punish excellence.There's ample evidence of that, and given enough time it's the natural end of things. And 2) contrasting socialized medicine as in Canad or Britain or here with HMO's or employer provided health care is like comparing appples to apples. They're the same thing.

In my world everyone would actually pay the doctor that treats them. That way they have control over their care. If the doctor is not a good doctor, he will eventually wind up with less patients and need to close shop and find a new line of work. That doesn't happen when you're health insurer pays the bill, your employer pays the bill, or even more when your government pays the bill. They are not as stingy with their dollars as you or I would be. Just a fact of life.

Now that's not saying that there isn't a way to do that and take care of people who can't afford care. If you want the poor to have health care then give each and everyone one of them their own account with dinero in it that could only be used to pay their medical expenses I am ambivalent about it as long as none of my money goes to pay for it. In that way, they choose, and they make their own decisions about what works for them, not some beaurocrat in Santo Domingo. Of course that can't happen here because then El Buro couldn't easily part the fools from their money.

Bottom line is that here, there, or anyway, the best thing anyone can do for themselves is to vote with their dollars. And people with the dollars to vote still (Chiri I'm sorry) go to the United States to pay for the care they need, rather than waiting in line in Britain. Or the Dominican Republic.

Tom aka XR I saw an ad in Listin Diario for 24 Hour Banking But I don't have that much time.