I have about had it with Alejandrina German

[mike l]

As a newbie, I am upset that I have to buy a helmet for my new moto concho.

What's next ???

[BushBaby]

My experiences in the country have proven that standing in front of someone shouting & gesticulating heavily about fairness & rights gets me absolutely nowhere. Handle the situation with a calm firmness coupled with humour & people will take note (& things get resolved)!

Another benefit of this is that the national & local press are now able to discuss things on the 'Mock Court' case & get some of the facts across to their readerships without causing censorship from above!! I mean after all, they were only describing what went on at a theatre weren't they??

I think these youngsters have done a tremendous amount of good to the community at large by bringing things to the service in a way that allows greater discussion - nationwide. This in turn will create a greater political awareness for the next elections AND the ones after that as long as these sorts of presentations are allowed to continue (apart from all the learning the youngsters are getting about legalities & Government in the country). So OKAY, the voting masses will not change overnight ...... but the process has started & as long as these functions are allowed to continue, it will remain a peaceful 'revolution'. ~ Grahame.

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Lambada

One day those skills, honed & polished, could be directed to a less peaceful objective. And a Government which doesn't listen (& worse, sends out urine hurling thugs - if indeed the order to launch came from above -) will only have itself to blame.

You're not advocating or supporting violence against a duly elected Constitutional gubmint, are you?

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by BushBaby

So OKAY, the voting masses will not change overnight ...... but the process has started & as long as these functions are allowed to continue, it will remain a peaceful 'revolution'. ~ Grahame.

Perhaps the prevailing political parties will only get 85% of the vote next time.

I dunno. Theater is neat and all, their cause may be noble, but I never saw a lot of results from symbolism. Substance is what changes things.

I know, I know, I'm the "doom & gloom" negatron...

One man's opinion: when a culture wants to change, it's not street performers or fringe complainers who grease the paradigm shift. It's the mass of the people. It's their collective will.

That being said, I'm sure the protests and street performers made some folks recall the heady days of the 60's when we took to the streets complaining about The Man, went home to a few bong hits, patchouli incense, "brownies" and cheap wine, and told each other how we were changing the world. Now we ARE The Man, and the youngsters are complaining about US. Yet another of Life's Cycles...

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Lambada

One day those skills, honed & polished, could be directed to a less peaceful objective. And a Government which doesn't listen (& worse, sends out urine hurling thugs - if indeed the order to launch came from above -) will only have itself to blame.

You don't see the irony for pining about a group organizing some sort of violence against something they don't like, and someone else organizing the violence against THEM?

[BushBaby]

CB - you are WAY ahead of many that have come to this country to 'enjoy' the lifestyle. You are INVOLVING yourself in that lifestyle & being appreciated for it - heck, some might even RESPECT you for it It would appear however from the above three posts that you are not picking up some of the ways things get done in the DR yet.

As I indicated in my post, face to face confrontation (like when the students/theatre group wanted to deliver a 'mock summons' to the education minister. Being perceived as a threat to the institution, this was rebuffed with force & retaliation was enforced. When the students put on their show & got their message across with humour & in fun ........ no confrontation was perceived & so it was allowed to continue. MORE was achieved via the theatre which the audience (press & even the police present) seemed to enjoy than the head on approach outside the Ministry.

You being a 'Thinking Man' & all that, I bet that if you return to this thread in a years time you would see some of the 'Ways to Get Things get Done' that some of us are trying to expound here. Stick around that committee in Jarabacoa that you have been invited into & see some of the games played there to get things achieved - Dominicans are past Masters at it !! ~ Grahame.
(CB. Please do me a favour. Drop the abbreviations of 'Gubmint', 'Prolly' & the like. As an initial joke they were amusing & I smiled accordingly but a man of your intellect demeans himself somewhat by CONTINUING with them - YOU know so much better than to try & castrate the English/American Language!!)

[Lambada]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

You're not advocating or supporting violence against a duly elected Constitutional gubmint, are you?

Why would you ask a question which (erroneously) implies that I support violence? Unless it was to give yourself an opening to apply your own construct..........

Originally Posted by cobraboy

You don't see the irony for pining about a group organizing some sort of violence against something they don't like, and someone else organizing the violence against THEM?

You have now assumed that La Multitud is about organising violence. It isn't. Their attempt to deliver the petition/summons to the Ministry of Education was a peaceful carrying out of a right to have access to a public building. Or, alternatively, you are assuming that I 'pine' for violence. That is incorrect.

Do you see how you develop an argument CB? An assumption asked as a question in one post becomes a statement of fact in the next. Why might this be, I wonder?

Perhaps I should only wonder fleetingly so that this thread does not go off the topic of Alejandrina German.

[cobraboy]

All fine and good, but what's gotten "done" in terms of corruption since you've been here, Grahame? Heck, go back 40 years! I won't even ask about what's been accomplished by the street theater and other assorted "non-confrontational" acts. I ask for specific, quantifiable reesults. Hard facts. Not squishy movement-speak. Results matter in real people's lives, style points don't. What's the expression? Money talks and bullspit walks? I'd like to see the progress the DR has made toward ending institutionalized corruption.

IMO, the street theater thing, while noble and even truthful, did little more than make the participants feel good about themselves. Certainly the AG issue has been front page for quite a while. Heck, it's been talked about on the radio station I listen to prol...err...probably a dozen times. It's not like folks don't know about it. It's everywhere. Besides, even when a rascal gets caught, only the worst of the worst get a free room @ La 21. Not exactly a huge anti-corruption motivator, know what I mean?

AG is not the "problem". She's just a symptom of the "problem". And I put "problem" in quotes, because, once again, based solely on the recent election returns where a HUGE % of the population voted, and 95% voted for the status quo. I'm not so sure the CITIZENS of the Dominican Republic see as much of a "problem" as sophistomacated foreign residents and visitors do.

Voters are basically consumers of gubmint. When they want a different product, they will demand one. I don't see it, and the voting pattern demonstrates it.

And, FTR, I perceive gubmint* corruption as the second worst, most basic problem in the country (I've mentioned my first before, the purely macroeconomic one, the genesis for all the other problems...), and I'm not giving AG a pass at all; au contraire, I'd like to buy her manse at the auction when she needs to raise a defense fund, after The Boys remove the jumper cables from her sensitive parts .

We agree on corruption, Grahame. We just disagree with the methods to achieve the end result, and the certainly the qualitative and quantitative measure of those results.






















*I'll most likely use the term "gubmint"; it's my personal *street theater* protest to mock corruptable man-made institutions used to control others behavior at the eventual point of a gun (or eternal damnation). Gubmint is the antithesis of personal sovereignty. It's a style issue. May I count on your solidarity for The Cause?

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Lambada

Why would you ask a question which (erroneously) implies that I support violence? Unless it was to give yourself an opening to apply your own construct..........



You have now assumed that La Multitud is about organising violence. It isn't. Their attempt to deliver the petition/summons to the Ministry of Education was a peaceful carrying out of a right to have access to a public building. Or, alternatively, you are assuming that I 'pine' for violence. That is incorrect.

Do you see how you develop an argument CB? An assumption asked as a question in one post becomes a statement of fact in the next. Why might this be, I wonder?

Perhaps I should only wonder fleetingly so that this thread does not go off the topic of Alejandrina German.

Originally Posted by Lambada

One day those skills, honed & polished, could be directed to a less peaceful objective. And a Government which doesn't listen (& worse, sends out urine hurling thugs - if indeed the order to launch came from above -) will only have itself to blame.

Thanks for the clarification. I merely asked about the words you used.

You commented about future violence these fine folks might use with their exceptional organizational skilz, but did so without comdemnation. Reading between the lines, there seemed to be subtle agreement.

I abhor violence no matter who uses it, except in legitimate self defense. Most civilized folks feel the same.

[BushBaby]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

All fine and good, but what's gotten "done" in terms of corruption since you've been here, Grahame? Heck, go back 40 years! I won't even ask about what's been accomplished by the street theater and other assorted "non-confrontational" acts. I ask for specific, quantifiable reesults. Hard facts. Not squishy movement-speak. Results matter in real people's lives, style points don't. What's the expression? Money talks and bullspit walks? I'd like to see the progress the DR has made toward ending institutionalized corruption.

I will have to allow HB to comment on what the situation here was like 40 years ago - I wasn't here & wasn't (at that time) taking any interest in Dominican History. From what I have read since getting here though, I understand that 'corruption' was at a much higher level & aquiecence to it was much more the order of the day! There were no Theatre Groups or 'Non confrontational groups allowed back then as ANY show of non compliance to the states wishes, were met by a LONG holiday (even worse than those which Robert dishes out every so often! !)

The 'Quantafiable Results' are shown in the fact that people talk more openly about corruption, illegalities, the failure of the legal system ............. all the things that you & I take as an absolute RIGHT but have been denied the populace of the DR until about 10 years ago - NOT by the law I would agree, but by the INTERPRETATION of that law by those who could influence it!! Without wishing in the slightest to be overbearing &/or conceited, you are not yet picking up the vibes within the country where people ARE becomming more vociferous in their disagreements with the system & ARE trying to flex their muscles a lot more. The 'Theatre Group' is just ONE of those means for getting people to think a bit more & then ACT upon the resolutions they make from their thoughts.
Heck, Street Theatres have been a means of getting things done fore AGES, this is nothing new. Those in JC's days & all through the middleages achieved quite a LOT in terms of getting a story of 'misdeeds by Governments &/or authorities' across to the masses.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

AG is not the "problem". She's just a symptom of the "problem". And I put "problem" in quotes, because, once again, based solely on the recent election returns where a HUGE % of the population voted, and 95% voted for the status quo. I'm not so sure the CITIZENS of the Dominican Republic see as much of a "problem" as sophistomacated foreign residents and visitors do.?

I would not be so rude as to suggest that a Dominican was incapable of making the thought transference from 'The AG mock Court Case' to other aspects of the Gov't operations in general - I give them a LOT more credit than that! Here they see AN example of others, they will take the analogies to the other areas without ANY problems. We will of course not SEE it, but maybe the threat of being ridiculed by the Theatre Group will make other ministers stop short of being downright stupid in misusing their powers - we can live in hope. This fear of being publically ridiculed happens in other countries all the time.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

We agree on corruption, Grahame. We just disagree with the methods to achieve the end result, and the certainly the qualitative and quantitative measure of those results.?

Yup. we will disagree. I have absolutely NO interest in the 'measuring of those results', all I am interested in is the results taking place. If Theatre Groups have an effect (no matter HOW SMALL) in getting someone to think twice about being corrupt ...... then GREAT - I am all for them. If a PEACEFUL march through the streets produces better results I am all for that too, AS AN ADDITION!
When I am hungry I can either eat a lot of 'LITTLE' pieces of food over a few hours OR I can gorge myself within 10 minutes. Both will satissfy my hunger but perhaps the former is better for my long term health!!

Originally Posted by cobraboy

*I'll most likely use the term "gubmint"; it's my personal *street theater* protest to mock corruptable man-made institutions used to control others behavior at the eventual point of a gun (or eternal damnation). Gubmint is the antithesis of personal sovereignty. It's a style issue. May I count on your solidarity for The Cause?

Sorry, NOPE. No Solidarity in this matter. It would be like me having to support the 'Nucelar' or 'preciate it' words!
I might be able to accept 'GOBment' though. Maybe even GRABment to denote the desire more taking monies for themselves. Why not split between the three or four & see how it goes? ~ Grahame