Guillermo Moreno's Plan For Dealing With DR's Problems

[Chris]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

The ONLY solution is a drive to increase real per capita GDP. But, once again, it's difficult if not nearly impossible, when you have more people than the internal resources can support.

I'm not so sure of that. 'That' being that there are more people than the internal resources can support. You say it with such absolute conviction each time you say it, as if someone cast it in stone somewhere.

I am of a different opionion and believe that the DR has (or used to have) sufficient resource to feed its populace. Of course not to support the jepeta generation. Food self sufficiency has become really old fashioned to talk about. Trade policies sound so much more sexy. Anyway, a real drive to recover the resources lost through the stupidities of various leaderships coupled with an uneducated populace, may make a substantial difference to lifestyle, but perhaps a very small GDP difference. By 'resources lost' I mean such things as nearshore fisheries, food production capability without spending a mint on chemicals. Anyway, my views are not necessarily popular as I believe in living within your means and not using more than a fair share of non-renewables.

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Chris

I'm not so sure of that. 'That' being that there are more people than the internal resources can support. You say it with such absolute conviction each time you say it, as if someone cast it in stone somewhere.

I am of a different opionion and believe that the DR has (or used to have) sufficient resource to feed its populace. Of course not to support the jepeta generation. Food self sufficiency has become really old fashioned to talk about. Trade policies sound so much more sexy. Anyway, a real drive to recover the resources lost through the stupidities of various leaderships coupled with an uneducated populace, may make a substantial difference to lifestyle, but perhaps a very small GDP difference. By 'resources lost' I mean such things as nearshore fisheries, food production capability without spending a mint on chemicals. Anyway, my views are not necessarily popular as I believe in living within your means and not using more than a fair share of non-renewables.

Try selling simple sustenance agriculture and fishing (just feed the people) to a population who wants to be First World, who WANT jeepetas, iPods, and the comforts they see in the novelas.

Fact is, the population of the DR, based on who they elect as leaders (that 96% voter thing), WANT a seat at the First World table.

The barn door is open, and the horse has been out for a while.

Based on the observable FACTS, an increase in per capita GDP is the only way to achieve what the voters of the DR want, even Senor Moreno.

[BushBaby]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

Try selling simple sustenance agriculture and fishing (just feed the people) to a population who wants to be First World, who WANT jeepetas, iPods, and the comforts they see in the novelas.

Fact is, the population of the DR, based on who they elect as leaders (that 96% voter thing), WANT a seat at the First World table.

The barn door is open, and the horse has been out for a while.

Based on the observable FACTS, an increase in per capita GDP is the only way to achieve what the voters of the DR want, even Senor Moreno.

THAT BC is probably the biggest load of Hooey you have spoken on DR1!!

The MAJORITY of the DR could not give two ****** about the 'First World' they know so little (if anything) about!! They want a plate of food on their table most days of the week, a cerveza or two to drink with their friends & a nice quiet lifestyle ............ END OF STORY!!

Your insistence that YOUR way is the ONLY way shows a desire to change the culture of the DR which I find a bit disturbing. SOME Dominicans have been taught to want 'BIG FLASHY POSESSIONS' but the majority would put up with a life that does not even accept the existence of the 'First World'. They have survived with a culture/friendship that far outweighs that of the 'Educated' world for over 500 years & have developed the way THEY want, why should we (the 'First World') impose OUR desires for this country's future on to them?

Whereas I become frustrated at the inequalities seen in this country & get angry at the rate at which the 'Have's' improve their lot at the expense of the 'Have NOTS', I try to be understanding & encourage the DOMINICANS to choose the pace at which they move forward.
(I am put in mind of the quickstep dance motions ..... Slow, Slow EXTREMELY Slow!!)

Your 'FACTS' may be right for you but they are not necessarily right for the DR. If we look at the development of the 'First World' countries, one might even suggest that the DR has the 'better' standard of living!! ~ Grahame.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by BushBaby

Your 'FACTS' may be right for you but they are not necessarily right for the DR. If we look at the development of the 'First World' countries, one might even suggest that the DR has the 'better' standard of living!! ~ Grahame.

That approach is slowly becoming popular again. Together with a lot of time to enjoy life and friends and family. Something about the Wine, Woman and Song Lifestyle that is completely intoxicating and not only the wine...

You're right though Grahame. I sense a 'my way is the right way' insistence as well. Cobraboy, you have a way to go before you can speak for the Dominican Voting Population. And read again, I am not talking about 'simple sustenance agriculture'. Uhm... come to think of it, the ability of a country to feed itself certainly is not simple. Anyway, I am simply putting forward my thoughts that an increase in Gross National Product is not the only solution and the FACTS that you say your thoughts are based on are not. They are simply opinions, same as mine.

The jepetocracy is a small part of the DR.

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by BushBaby

THAT BC is probably the biggest load of Hooey you have spoken on DR1!!

The MAJORITY of the DR could not give two ****** about the 'First World' they know so little (if anything) about!! They want a plate of food on their table most days of the week, a cerveza or two to drink with their friends & a nice quiet lifestyle ............ END OF STORY!!

Your insistence that YOUR way is the ONLY way shows a desire to change the culture of the DR which I find a bit disturbing. SOME Dominicans have been taught to want 'BIG FLASHY POSESSIONS' but the majority would put up with a life that does not even accept the existence of the 'First World'. They have survived with a culture/friendship that far outweighs that of the 'Educated' world for over 500 years & have developed the way THEY want, why should we (the 'First World') impose OUR desires for this country's future on to them?

Whereas I become frustrated at the inequalities seen in this country & get angry at the rate at which the 'Have's' improve their lot at the expense of the 'Have NOTS', I try to be understanding & encourage the DOMINICANS to choose the pace at which they move forward.
(I am put in mind of the quickstep dance motions ..... Slow, Slow EXTREMELY Slow!!)

Your 'FACTS' may be right for you but they are not necessarily right for the DR. If we look at the development of the 'First World' countries, one might even suggest that the DR has the 'better' standard of living!! ~ Grahame.

You're saying that the majority of Dominicans don't watch TV, don't want a car or moto, don't want those Air Jordans or designer purse, don't jump at the chance to upgrade their cellphone, don't want to be Big Papi, don't want consistent electricity, don't want potable water, and don't want good edumacation?

You're saying the average Dominican won't risk their lives to escape to the US?

You're saying the average Dominican won't marry an old guy/gal to get her/his and their entire family out of the DR?

Why, pray tell, do over 1,000,000 Dominicans live outside the DR in the First World? And why is it so hard for a Dominican to get a visa out? Seems if they liked it so much, they'd just want to stay, foreign countries would know it, and make the visa process easy and quick.

I dunno, Grahame. I get around the country a lot, and I'm seeing a different "average" Dominican, I suppose, than you are. I see folks who want more, but it's just not there.

Besides, I'm a little confused about which Dominicans you're talking about: those angry proletariat who are itching to shake things up in mass, ready to overthrow the status quo, or those simple child-like Dominicans who want nothing more than food on their plate, cerveza with their friends, and a nice, quiet lifestyle (except for the music and dancing, of course). Understand my confusion.

And, Grahame, how many times must I post that I am a guest here, and that I have no intention to interfere with how they run their country? I only observe. Seems to me that it's you and your partner who are the rabble rousers, trying to shows these poor, unenlightened, low-consciousness savages* how things should be done in their country, the First World way.

So tell me, what should I do? Accept the Dominican culture and try to fit into it, as suggested repeatedly in Quisqueya, or spend my time raising political consciousness in an effort for Dominicans to become part of the First World, with social, political and economic justice, concepts that the average "simple" Dominican you refer to isn't particulary aware of?

Now, define for me "Hooey".





















*Sort of a Western Missionary/Margaret Meade reference.

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Chris

Cobraboy, you have a way to go before you can speak for the Dominican Voting Population.

So the factual analysis of the voting pattern results from May 16 have no bearing of how the voters think about their country?

I see.

YOU didn't like the fact that 96% of the voters want and voted the status quo, so YOU discount the facts.

Gotcha.



So if the "jepetocracy" (whatever the heck that is) is so small, why do y'all...and Moreno*...rant against it? And why are there so many running around in the country? Why do you fear it?

And Chris, can you find a better solution to the problems of the DR than raising the GNP sharply? Right now it's around US$4000 per capita. Based on that, offer solutions to funding all the needs the country has. I'd truly like to hear them. Seriously.

















*I DO like his 4-cyl gubmint car idea.

[Texas Bill]

Grahamme, Chris AND Cobraboy;
My observations, in theshort tome I have lived here, read a bit of DR history, leads me to believe that the "blame" for the cunundrum facing the DR rests with the "body politic" and their empty promises to their constituency over the years have resulted in the "general attitude" that the "government" is a know it all, do it all "savior". Without that constant influx of empty rhetoric on an uneducated and naieve population we would be in an entirely different social structure than we see today.
To me, the question is: "Can the EVER climb out of being a failed society in the eyes of those of us who were raised in a different and more progressive society"?
My own answer to that question is, NEVER.
Having said that, I was apalled at the lack of observable incentives exhibited by the Dominicans I came in contact with when I first arrived. No one was taking advantage of theidle, arible land to grow a garden, range cattle and hogs or even clean up their own refuse on their occupied property. To me that was the heigth of utter laziness and unawareness of the health problems they were creating and living in.
That and the out and out stealing from their neighbors who were a very little better off than they were spoke loudly of the lack of any awareness of even the most basic of social living relative to their fellow citizens.
What has happened to the total abandonment of self-respect, much less respect for the other's in the same boat?
Individually, the average Dominican is, I think, a descent sort, but collectively they're still in the "Dark Ages" socially.
We can't blame this endemic qualty on the lack of education and opportunity totally. A great deal must be attributed to family interaction, or lack thereof. As much as family members are excessively loyal, they lack that ingredient of making corrective action toward other members when the need arises.
'Nuff said.

Texas Bill

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Texas Bill

Grahamme, Chris AND Cobraboy;
My observations, in theshort tome I have lived here, read a bit of DR history, leads me to believe that the "blame" for the cunundrum facing the DR rests with the "body politic" and their empty promises to their constituency over the years have resulted in the "general attitude" that the "government" is a know it all, do it all "savior". Without that constant influx of empty rhetoric on an uneducated and naieve population we would be in an entirely different social structure than we see today.
To me, the question is: "Can the EVER climb out of being a failed society in the eyes of those of us who were raised in a different and more progressive society"?
My own answer to that question is, NEVER.
Having said that, I was apalled at the lack of observable incentives exhibited by the Dominicans I came in contact with when I first arrived. No one was taking advantage of theidle, arible land to grow a garden, range cattle and hogs or even clean up their own refuse on their occupied property. To me that was the heigth of utter laziness and unawareness of the health problems they were creating and living in.
That and the out and out stealing from their neighbors who were a very little better off than they were spoke loudly of the lack of any awareness of even the most basic of social living relative to their fellow citizens.
What has happened to the total abandonment of self-respect, much less respect for the other's in the same boat?
Individually, the average Dominican is, I think, a descent sort, but collectively they're still in the "Dark Ages" socially.
We can't blame this endemic qualty on the lack of education and opportunity totally. A great deal must be attributed to family interaction, or lack thereof. As much as family members are excessively loyal, they lack that ingredient of making corrective action toward other members when the need arises.
'Nuff said.

Texas Bill

Bill, part of one of my theses was applying Maslow to a country's economic development. Seems the DR is low on the second, or "Security Need" level. Folks coming from economies in the "Self Actualization" level get frustrated when folks three levels down just don't "get it".

Cultures and societies evolve, too, and at different paces.

[Lambada]

Originally Posted by Chris

I am of a different opionion and believe that the DR has (or used to have) sufficient resource to feed its populace. Of course not to support the jepeta generation. Food self sufficiency has become really old fashioned to talk about. Trade policies sound so much more sexy. Anyway, a real drive to recover the resources lost through the stupidities of various leaderships coupled with an uneducated populace, may make a substantial difference to lifestyle, but perhaps a very small GDP difference. By 'resources lost' I mean such things as nearshore fisheries, food production capability without spending a mint on chemicals. Anyway, my views are not necessarily popular as I believe in living within your means and not using more than a fair share of non-renewables.

I suspect that is about to change (the part I emboldened). Certainly it ought to change if people can see what is going on with food production on a global level. Whilst looking at this I came across a couple of reports which highlight that decreased investment in the agricultural sector was more or less at the same time as tourism took off (1980's onwards) - see pages 3 & 4 here, for example
http://www.wfp.org/eb/docs/1998/wfp000294~1.pdf

and a study of a fishing community, Buen Hombre
When fish is water: Food security and fish in a coastal community in the dominican republic

Almost makes you think the developments of the last 10 years were going in entirely the wrong direction............

At least Guillermo Moreno seems to be in favour of supporting the local agriculture business to feed the country's inhabitants whereas Leonel appears to be playing the world stage card in getting the UN to support the DR as the Caribbean's grain silo
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/pov...ans-grain-silo

[cobraboy]

Nice documents, Ginnie, especially the first one. Note that 14 years ago, the DR had a food deficit with 1,200,000 fewer people.

However, the per capita GNP has nearly tripled.

As long as GNP growth rises at a rate faster than population, economic progress is being made.