Guillermo Moreno's Plan For Dealing With DR's Problems

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Chris

That is a good way of looking at it. The form has changed but the underlying values not. There certainly is enough reason to my mind for the populace to literally take to the streets but instead, there is the odd huelga about a specific issue so now and again. People do not seem to want to act politically.

Which has ALWAYS been my point. Whether the firebrands think so or not, there is no political will within the voting populace. And the actual voting results confirm this over and over.

Thank you for confirming my point.

Originally Posted by Chris

This is such a strange thing. In my country I fully believe that I saw the only miracle that I will ever see in my life, and that is that the place did not erupt into bloody revolution. Yet, 20 years on, things are really still the same, only now a majority has the ruling power. But things have not really changed for the majority of the body politic. It looks the same to me in the DR in terms of change ... people do not really believe that they are empowered to speak out and to act. The peaceful and evolutionary political change process is painfully slow for people that existed under a dictatorship. We need a good revolution!

Chris, comparing institutional racism under apartheid and the current situation in the DR is absurd. I have no doubt it was painful for thinking white South Africans to live through it. The vicarious guilt must be painful. And I'm equally sure watching the violent aftermath, the fiery collaring and street death, was equally disturbing. It was for the rest of the world watching the events unfold. It had to be much worse for those who have a dog in the hunt.

But it begs the question of the future of the DR.

For some reason you seem to feel that economic solvency and social issues are in independent universes, that one who advocates economic growth must not also advocate social issues. In fact, that one who advocates economic growth actually advocates keeping "average people" down. The assumption is that a given economy is a "zero sum game"; that the "economic pie" is inflexible, and the allocation within that "pie" just needs to be redistributed, slivers re-allocated, in order to accomplish "social and economic justice". Nothing could be further from the truth.

FACT is, every program you advocate, better schools, emphasis on farming/agriculture, socialised healthcare, etc., come at a specific real cost. NOTHING comes for free. Nothing. And, once again, there are not enough economic resources to do these things without considerable damage to the economy as a whole. If you damage the productive segments of the economy, i.e. tourism, Free Zones, etc., then the financial deficit in the future gets even worse.

Once again, the root problem of the DR...and MANY poorer nations...is that they have more population that the internal resources can support.

Our difference of opinion boils down to your view of an economy. Mine happens to be borne from two advanced degrees, one in business, and one in economics, both from a prominent US university. I don't know where yours, or Ginnie & BB's, comes from.

There are really only two choices: set the economy back decades in an effort to accomplish the many social needs of today, or grow the economy to the point that it can pay for the social services into perpetuity. The former is a recipe for long-term disaster. The latter is a precarious balancing act.

One need to look no further than your native country to see the horrors of poor centralized socialist/Communist-style economic planning. Look at the former Rhodesia, once the garden of Africa. And close by, look at the fiasco of Cuba post Soviet Union collapse, and look at Hugo Chavez's recent begging for business investment to come back. ALL were well intended. ALL failures (and heck, Chavez has a supertanker full of oil cash)...

It's not a matter of saying "grow the GNP" really fast a hundred times for someone to believe it. It's a matter of reality. One can choose to accept facts as they are, or not.

IMO, if you want a really effective common-sense political/economic solution, one that could be both effective and progressive for your and Ginnie's social consciousness, would be a drive to insure that increases in social spending be tied to IMF analysis of increases in GNP. Currently I understand that figure is in the 6-6.5% range. Of course, I understand there is currently a mandated level of required spending for education that is being ignored; I would financially support any candidate who guarantees that law be adhered to, and do so strongly.

But there ARE actions with positive demonstrable results that private citizens CAN do, outside the pervue of gubmint, that can achieve great, sustainable results. I wrote a first-hand account of one such organization, Fundacion Balarminio Ramirez from Jarabacoa, and the excellent, off-the-radar, carrot/stick/play it forward strategy they have been employing in the small farming community of Los Dajaous. A true success story in organizational charity, community education, and sustainable organic agriculture. But you deleted the entire post. Didn't move it to an area not "Environmental", but deleted it.

We've been invited to participate in this organizations work with the local school. I'm hesitant to make a lengthy first-hand report on that, for fear you'll delete it, too.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

Chris, comparing institutional racism under apartheid and the current situation in the DR is absurd.

You don't get it. I'm comparing my two experiences of the voting population of countries formerly under a dictatorship. 96% of the population of South Africa functioned under a dictatorship; one based on color. But you actually only know what you read in the newspapers, so, your knowledge is scant and skewed.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

For some reason you seem to feel that economic solvency and social issues are in independent universes, that one who advocates economic growth must not also advocate social issues.

CB, you consistently misunderstand me. All I say, is that your view, although you state your case forcefully, is not the only view.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

NOTHING comes for free. Nothing.

Yes. What is your point.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

And, once again, there are not enough economic resources to do these things without considerable damage to the economy as a whole. If you damage the productive segments of the economy, i.e. tourism, Free Zones, etc., then the financial deficit in the future gets even worse.

Who wants to damage what? This is the consistent message from economists now for a number of years. That is even what I learnt in grad school. Its just that some of us look at the status quo and say .. Wtf, this stuff that we've been doing all these years don't work. Subsequently I found that there is a wealth of other views and a slew of other practices, yours being only one of them. And currently, with the world issues happening now, I find a whole lot of theories being hastily redrawn and rewritten.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

Once again, the root problem of the DR...and MANY poorer nations...is that they have more population that the internal resources can support.

No, it could well be a matter of utilizing the resources. I believe in the DR it is a large part of the problem. It could also be a matter of skewed distribution. It could also be a matter of our 'market' being inherently flawed, in other words, we don't know our asses from our elbows. It is simple - there are more views than yours. Forgive me for quoting from the Wiki, but they had a handy list... "behavioral economics, complexity economics, evolutionary economics, experimental economics, neuroeconomics ... ", even systems of barter and non-cash economies of which I saw one working during the last two years.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

Our difference of opinion boils down to your view of an economy. Mine happens to be borne from two advanced degrees, one in business, and one in economics, both from a prominent US university. I don't know where yours, or Ginnie & BB's, comes from.

Really, Lambada and BB are almost certain to talk for themselves. There is a commonality though. We've never discussed this and I'll say something more about the commonality in a bit.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

... only two choices: set the economy back decades in an effort to accomplish the many social needs of today, or grow the economy to the point that it can pay for the social services into perpetuity. The former is a recipe for long-term disaster. The latter is a precarious balancing act.

If you talk about the economy, sounds like you're talking about some deity. I don't think there are only two choices. I think we've been 'brainwashed' to think of only two choices ... brainwashed by the likes of the IMF and WB. I'll say more about this in a bit.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

One need to look no further than your native country to see the horrors of poor centralized socialist/Communist-style economic planning. Look at the former Rhodesia, once the garden of Africa. And close by, look at the fiasco of Cuba post Soviet Union collapse, and look at Hugo Chavez's recent begging for business investment to come back. ALL were well intended. ALL failures (and heck, Chavez has a supertanker full of oil cash)...

Zimbabwe is suffering from the same malaise that Haiti suffered from .. its called dictatorship. Many African countries have been through this process and are now doing well. Many are doing poorly. My native country is so far from a communist country that your comment is laughable. It used to be one, but now it is actually a functioning democracy, albeit close to a social democracy, depending how you analize. It is only that we all know which party will win any election. But I believe that is common these days in the US as well. Anyway, about Africa, most folks educated in the US find those concepts so foreign that they cannot deal with them. There is a very large blind spot.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

It's not a matter of saying "grow the GNP" really fast a hundred times for someone to believe it. It's a matter of reality. One can choose to accept facts as they are, or not.

That is not a fact. It is only a point of view that certain economists advocate. There are more pieces to the puzzle. The economists are not moving them all. You are however a function of your education ...

... and if Ginny and BB have anything to say, they will most probably tell you that as well. The difference is exactly what some of us are doing with our time. Some of us spend our time learning, and some of us spend our time defending what we learnt in school. I think neither Ginny nor BB could care a fig for what they learnt in school, excepting in as much as the learning experience gave them structure to continue learning. Labels don't work for such people; like the label 'progressive'. It does not fit. To use a hackneyed phrase, the whole becomes more than the sum of its parts.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

IMO, if you want a really effective common-sense political/economic solution, one that could be both effective and progressive for your and Ginnie's social consciousness, would be a drive to insure that increases in social spending be tied to IMF analysis of increases in GNP. Currently I understand that figure is in the 6-6.5% range. Of course, I understand there is currently a mandated level of required spending for education that is being ignored; I would financially support any candidate who guarantees that law be adhered to, and do so strongly.

The IMF and the WB have screwed up so spectacularly over the past 40 (arguably) or so years that I won't trust them with my change purse. And most other organizations from developing countries are coming to the same conclusion. These two august bodies are even beginning to cry 'mea culpa' about their own mistakes. We've been laboring under a misconception for years. That is that bodies such as the UN, the WB and the IMF know what is good for us. They don't. (Oh dear, I can just imagine the knee jerking about the UN ... , but then as I said previously: "CB, you consistently misunderstand me."

Originally Posted by cobraboy

But there ARE actions with positive demonstrable results that private citizens CAN do, outside the pervue of gubmint, that can achieve great, sustainable results.

Yes I know. I do them daily.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

I wrote a first-hand account of one such organization, Fundacion Balarminio Ramirez from Jarabacoa, and the excellent, off-the-radar, carrot/stick/play it forward strategy they have been employing in the small farming community of Los Dajaous. A true success story in organizational charity, community education, and sustainable organic agriculture. But you deleted the entire post. Didn't move it to an area not "Environmental", but deleted it.

I don't think I deleted any of your posts in a very long time... months if not a year or so. So, I really do not know what you are talking about. But you know, you are not welcome in the environment forum. Your whole philosophy in life is against environmentalism, so, you just cause chaos in that forum but you try and appear knowledgeable and on-topic. If you know this, why did you post something there that you say I deleted? You've got both the wrong forum and the wrong 'deleter'. You're not welcome there, because you shat on what we do there too many times in a desperate effort to kill the forum. You know that ... just go and read what your own political home publishes and stop the handwringing.

Originally Posted by cobraboy

We've been invited to participate in this organizations work with the local school. I'm hesitant to make a lengthy first-hand report on that, for fear you'll delete it, too.

Nice! I hope your work is well accepted and productive.
You know, I've said this to you many times. If you create enough havoc, write enough threats and push your own ideology down enough throats, the mods are going to get mad because of the sheer time wasting component and start deleting you out of hand. So now eventually you have something that you're dying to post about it and no-one is impressed. What was that fairy tale, the one about crying wolf.

Again, to get back to the original question .. I do not think anyone has the ability, foresight and sheer visionary power to really know what to do in these days where the world is facing a perfect storm. (Yes, I know everyone is scoffing at Nal's poll, but we all know there are a few problems.) I think these days we have to look at people who proclaim that they have the power to do something, with caution and if we empower a politician to do something for us, we need to keep that person personally accountable.

[bob saunders]

Edited by Robert. Enough of the Environment forum comments and BS, this is the Government forum.

[Lambada]

Originally Posted by Chris

Really, Lambada and BB are almost certain to talk for themselves.

You can count on it

Originally Posted by cobraboy

Mine happens to be borne from two advanced degrees, one in business, and one in economics, both from a prominent US university. I don't know where yours, or Ginnie & BB's, comes from.

I prefer to keep my testimonials to myself but I am not unfamiliar with higher education first as a historian and secondly as a social scientist from three different UK universities the prominence of which is open to debate.................But I wouldn't want to discount social anthropological studies through the University of Life carried out in UK, US, Mongolia, Russia, Spanish Sahara, Upper Volta, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, China, Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, Mali, Niger, Zambia, the DR & a few others in Europe and where that all got me so far is not to

Originally Posted by cobraboy

There are really only two choices:

But as I'm still on the journey I don't know where I'll end up, position wise that is. Right now it's probably fairly near Chopra's 'You and I are essentially infinite choice makers. In every moment of our existence we are in that field of all possibilities where we have access to an infinity of choices.' Or that other wise soul who said something like if you limit your choices only to what seems possible or reasonable, you disconnect yourself from what you truly want, and all that is left is a compromise.............

Of course the DR has a whole raft of problems some of its own & its politicos making, some due to historical legacy, some due to international bodies. But I am not a commentator on the sidelines who sits in a sports commentary box and says 'when the people want change they'll vote for it' because I see a whole heap of complexities about bought elections and other impediments to believe that voting per se necessarily signifies the will of the people. And what to Cobraboy might be rabble rousing to others is consciousness raising. A positive doing 'owning' activity not a doom & gloom non-participative function. But............I have no great need to argue about it. I'd rather be doing it.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

...true success story in organizational charity, community education, and sustainable organic agriculture. But you deleted the entire post. Didn't move it to an area not "Environmental", but deleted it.

Robert, how many times do we have to go over this?
Enough of the remarks, dig, attacks etc at the moderators.

"One" more comment, gripe or dig at a moderator and your account will be locked. Meaning.... Your be able to read DR1, but not post in ANY of the forums.

If you have anything to say about a moderator or how DR1 is run, send me a PM. Posting your gripes on the board wins you know brownie points.

Carry on....

[bob saunders]

Of his recommendations . #1 General increase in wages - not tied to production or increased standards - therefore too expensive and infationary
#2 too vague - get rid of the electrical subsidy completely. lower the per Whrs charge but charge everybody and I mean everybody. #3 Actually a good idea but expensive. # 4 not to sure what he means #5 I agree with but again expensive and difficult to impliment, but is already partially in place, #6 50% reduction in wages for all the high wage earners - will never fly especially if #1 is implemented, the politicians driving cars/jeepetas with 4 cylinders - good idea, limit overseas trips...etc good idea, Get rid of all NGOs sponsored by politicians, the rest of 6 I agree with. #7 - fully acceptable #8 - agree
Over all not bad ideas, but a bit pie in the sky, as he would have to eliminate human greed to implement many of them.

[bob saunders]

Hey did I kill the thread or is no one actually interested in discussing the merits of his proposals and would just rather talk about their education and school of life....etc.

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by bob saunders

Hey did I kill the thread or is no one actually interested in discussing the merits of his proposals and would just rather talk about their education and school of life....etc.

I had my say. I said it prolly won't happen without more $$ that thje DR just doesn't have.

A chicken* in every pot sounds good until folks find there aren't enough chickens*. Then you have to figure out how to get more chickens*.
























*A metaphore for GNP

[Theforceinme]

Do any of you know where the MIUCA offices are? How could I get in touch with this party, or alternatively, to Mr Guillermo Moreno?