From Today's DR1 News.....

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Robert

Actually, I think you will find that the generals have very little say in what goes on.
They are not the power brokers here, they are more like pawns.

Whoa!!! I know oldline, fine Dominican families and knowledgeable expats who totally disagree with you.

I know folks who say that they support Generals because to NOT support them can be...all sorts of hazards. I know rich folks who think having Generals as "friends" is necessary for all sorts of fear-based reasons. I wouldn't call that "pawnish" behavior. I'd call that benign extortion at the point of several virtual guns held by folks with almost no legal accountability, and a whole lot of loyal...err..."soldiers" with attitudes and guns at their disposal.

[ExtremeR]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lu

Listen, I am right here. You got something to say, direct your comments to me. No need for this third person babble, where you off and espouse unsubstantiated comments by someone else as a way to defend your rhetoric. And before I go ahead and derail your obviously dubious comparisons let me assure you that YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I AM THINKING!!!!!!!!!

Want to know what I am thinking? ASK!!!!

Don't ever assume anything about what I am thinking unless I have explicitly written or commented on the fact.

Don't conjecture, don't think, don't assume. I have written nothing to the likes in this thread, therefore your assumptions about my opinions are ludicrous at best, slanderous at worst. I have made no comparisons between The Great Goat and the Great Goat's sack. I have placed blame where blame is due and could care less about Balaguer. I am alive now, living through Fernandez 1.0. Balaguer can be playing poker with Jesus and the Devil, for all I care.

And don't worry I don't have to portrait Leonel like anything, he does that by himself.

Furthermore you have no idea what "I am feeling," so save yourself the trouble and don't think too hard about my thoughts. There are obviously a few things you need to be thinking about as you post, and what I think or don't think is not one of them.

And now for a bit of conjecture of my own, you are one of these "apologetics," eh? You look at the rosy stuff but fail to see the truth. "Oh hes bad, but better than the worst of them." This is the same attitude that is leading towards the road of disaster.

"Apologizers" like you aim for the lowest of standards. Are you sure you are not Dominican? As this seems a truly Dominican trait. "Let's not find the best politician, let's find the one who is comparably better than the worse guy, and then apologize for the load of shyt he dumps on us, but thank God, the load of shyt was lighter than the previous loads!!!"

You get shyt dumped on you, no matter how big, is still shyt.




Real progress, eh?





Mr. Lu

Whoa it looks like I touched a nerve or two, slow down papa we are talking about politics here.....

I referred to you in 3rd person because I was responding to Bushbaby remarks of my 1st post, not in a form of disrespect towards you, so chill out.

About Leonel what I'm trying to make you understand is that you can't be comparing DR's politics personalities to US or UK politics. In those developed countries you don't have to build a huge client base to help you reach power so later you can repay them, in the DR that is a fact, that is a monster that we have to live with whether we want it or not. That creates a huge drain in the government capabilities to solve problems and lead to the most common problems that can't be solved in the DR in these days (electricity for example). That scenario will be always true whether is Leonel, Hipolito, Miguel Vargas or DR1's favourite Guillermo Moreno governing the country.

I stated in the other post what differentiate Leonel from the others and why looking at the big picture he is the best option by far....

[Chip]

Originally Posted by ExtremeR

Whoa it looks like I touched a nerve or two, slow down papa we are talking about politics here.....

I referred to you in 3rd person because I was responding to Bushbaby remarks of my 1st post, not in a form of disrespect towards you, so chill out.

About Leonel what I'm trying to make you understand is that you can't be comparing DR's politics personalities to US or UK politics. In those developed countries you don't have to build a huge client base to help you reach power so later you can repay them, in the DR that is a fact, that is a monster that we have to live with whether we want it or not. That creates a huge drain in the government capabilities to solve problems and lead to the most common problems that can't be solved in the DR in these days (electricity for example). That scenario will be always true whether is Leonel, Hipolito, Miguel Vargas or DR1's favourite Guillermo Moreno governing the country.

I stated in the other post what differentiate Leonel from the others and why looking at the big picture he is the best option by far....

Senor racing,

I have actually come to realize that Leonel is a great improvement over his predecessors, however you should realize too that statements like the above in bold by you are just not something an American or other Western minded person can accept, ever. Furthermore, you fail to realize unfortunately that such statements like the one you posted boggle the mind of the average American and even appear as parody.

[ExtremeR]

Here we go again....

What is a parody Chip??? That in order to reach power in the DR, you have to appeal to a vast army of people to support you, be it another party, be it a high dirigente of the opposition party, be it those business owners who unloads millions of dollars in the campaign. It is a sadly event but it is the reality of the politic infrastructure in the DR.

"I invest in your campaign and you pay me later when you reach or retain the Office".

Clientelismo; whether you accept it or not, that's the system and you have to adapt to it, something that I see is a huge challenge for some.

Ps: Don't get Senor Racing remark...

[Robert]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

Whoa!!! I know oldline, fine Dominican families and knowledgeable expats who totally disagree with you.

I know folks who say that they support Generals because to NOT support them can be...all sorts of hazards. I know rich folks who think having Generals as "friends" is necessary for all sorts of fear-based reasons. I wouldn't call that "pawnish" behavior. I'd call that benign extortion at the point of several virtual guns held by folks with almost no legal accountability, and a whole lot of loyal...err..."soldiers" with attitudes and guns at their disposal.

Rich folks are one thing, powerful families that run the country are another thing.

I agree, having a general as your friend is a good thing.

But...

If my last name is Grullón and I run Banco Popular, then those generals would be seen as pawns

[FernieBee]

Originally Posted by ExtremeR

"I invest in your campaign and you pay me later when you reach or retain the Office".

I think the USA has that, too, but the people enriching the candidates are just very adept at hiding the contributions.

[Lambada]

Originally Posted by Chip

Senor racing,

I have actually come to realize that Leonel is a great improvement over his predecessors, however you should realize too that statements like the above in bold by you are just not something an American or other Western minded person can accept, ever. Furthermore, you fail to realize unfortunately that such statements like the one you posted boggle the mind of the average American and even appear as parody.

I suppose in being a Brit. I am a 'Western minded person' and I certainly accept that DR politics is riddled with clientelismo partly as a result of historical events - like the legacy of personalized and de-institutionalized government decision making that characterized 30 years of Trujillismo and was even in place way before Trujillo. And it won't change, in my view, until national political organizations are capable of making credible policy promises to voters.

[Chip]

Originally Posted by Lambada

I suppose in being a Brit. I am a 'Western minded person' and I certainly accept that DR politics is riddled with clientelismo partly as a result of historical events - like the legacy of personalized and de-institutionalized government decision making that characterized 30 years of Trujillismo and was even in place way before Trujillo. And it won't change, in my view, until national political organizations are capable of making credible policy promises to voters.

I submit that your "acceptance" and ExtremeR's are different animals completely. One is merely accepting reality, however grudgingly, and the other is accepting it almost too wholeheartedly and way too nonchalantly.

[cobraboy]

Originally Posted by Robert

Rich folks are one thing, powerful families that run the country are another thing.

I agree, having a general as your friend is a good thing.

But...

If my last name is Grullón and I run Banco Popular, then those generals would be seen as pawns

Call it synergy: they both need each other. Even the powerful families need protection. And Generals need largess.

But when push comes to shove, a guy with a loyal, trained army is a formidable power. History is full of military strongmen who mock the powerful. Not as much the other way.

There is a reason Presidents keep naming new Generals. They need new ones who are loyal to THEM, since there is no real guarantee the old ones are. It's a Balance of Power thing.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by cobraboy

Call it synergy: they both need each other. Even the powerful families need protection. And Generals need largess.

Protection from what?

I think you'll find on a personal protection level, the larger more powerful families do not use local military for protection.

Presidents, that's a different story and different reasons why we have military and generals etc.

Moving on....

Yes, I agree with Mr. Lu that Leonel is just using the DR as a stepping stone to better a bigger things.