Dominican women and cheating

[AnnaC]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lu

Interesting thread and very disheartening at the same time. Makes me ask a lot of questions in regards to being a male in this society.

Aside from the bickering and back talk, this has been a very informative and important thread.

But I ask, what are the answers and solutions, if any? I know the context of domestic abuse in the DR is very particular due to a variety of reasons, but where does the change come?

It is interesting to note than even on a site like DR1, where very little is off limits, this topic has rarely come up, in depth, at least to my limited knowledge.


Carry on



Mr. Lu

Mr Lu you can find these discussions as far back as 2003. The one below sprouted from another subject at the time.

http://www.dr1.com/forums/general-stuff/22033-domestic-violence-suicide-dr-9replaces-demonic-males-apes-thread-now-closed.html


Here's the first part of that discussion Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence

[Lambada]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lu

but where does the change come?

From each and every one of us, in our own way, where it has most effect. You're an elightened male, Mr. Lu, so raise the subject with your male buddies. I don't know if you have children, but if you do, raise them accordingly. Little by little it is changing. If we all got involved in raising awareness it would help. Alas there isn't too much we can do about the poverty & lack of education side of this, but if, for example, all those educated young people who put so much effort into Los Haitises could do the same with this subject.......we'd be on a roll.

[POPNYChic]

eeeek Matilda lol sad, but true. violence is often seen as a supposed viable solution and i dont doubt there are alot of cases against men and the supposed "other woman". I guess when you know your man is going to be out cheating, you get insanely jealous! And when you are treated violently you start to think its ok to be violent towards others. Its an ugly cycle.

As for solutions? It all starts at home. I feel the institutions trying to quell domestic violence have done little to focus on that very important aspect. I fear thats because, not only is it hard to get people to admit to raising their children wrong, the organizers themselves are most likely guilty of it in a sense. How do you call someone out for something you all do? Their approach has been one of targeting the effects, while ignoring the cause...and thats the reason for the programs failing. I think they are largely unaware of how it all rests on the whole "men are on top, women are to be stomped on" culture.

We can also do our part by raising our concerns to others around us...family, friends, etc. Whoever you can reach.

Its all entangled in Machismo. If the Machismo isnt quelled, it will never end. But for Machismo to end, there has to be some kind of a feminist movement dedicated to helping people understand that women are NOT lower beings than men. That we are equal. Abuse towards women occurs because men feel its their right to abuse, as they are superior and women are inferior.

It happened in Europe and the U.S. but the rest of the world has not really followed thru with it. Latin America as a whole is a good 40-50 years behind the Womens Lib movement.

Of course, sexism will never be totally eradicated as it clearly exists everywhere...but it can be diluted to a more livable point.

However....I can't imagine a society that only knows Machismo can possibly suddenly accept that we are all equals. I imagine there would be much resistance.

The good thing is, though we are far behind, there are still some of us attempting to do our part to change things. As women are gaining more access to education, so is the "equality" movement gaining ground...

The current organizations make it evident that the initial steps are being taken. Its just going to take more effort and much more TIME, as you cannot change a whole countries mindset in just a generation.

[Mr. Lu]

Originally Posted by Matilda

Interestingly they also expect their man to check up on them all the times as well, and they expect to be beaten if they do not toe the line. And as one said to me - if he doesn't beat me I know he doesn't love me. It is an expression of love!!!!

matilda

Is this true? I am not saying you are wrong, I am just astounded. "Expect" to be beaten? "Expect." Violence and love? Wow. Astounded.



Mr. Lu

[Matilda]

Sorry I am not wrong. I mix in circles ranging from the very rich to the very poor. Dominican and Haitian. And I spend a lot of time having fairly in depth conversations to try and understand the very different mind sets to my own. Those of the poorer classes in my experience are much more violent - as I say I think it is a lack of education, lack of self esteem and an inability to communicate. But women of these classes certainly do expect their husbands to check up on them and they too check up on their husbands. And more than once I have heard them say that they only beat them as they love them as it shows they care. If they did not care they would not mind if the women were out too late. It is a sign of affection.

matilda

[Lambada]

Originally Posted by Matilda

And more than once I have heard them say that they only beat them as they love them as it shows they care. If they did not care they would not mind if the women were out too late. It is a sign of affection. matilda

Two factors working here, I think. a) they heard their mothers and grandmothers say it & b) the defence mechanism of rationalisation (frequently unconscious) - the fallacious justification of various attitudes, beliefs, or behaviours. If they can justify physical violence as a proof of affection, they don't have to face what it can really mean viz. 1) that they have married a dangerous man who one day might kill them & 2) they must be pretty worthless to 'deserve' this treatment. An extreme example of 'Dominican optimism'...........and a dangerous one, because consistently studies (& the real life experiences of those of us who have worked with battered women) show that without some type of intervention, these situations do not improve, they get progressively worse until a fatality occurs.

But it has to start with defining it as a problem. And until people are ready to do that, anything the rest of us do will be seen as imposing our values. That's why the consciousness raising that existing Dominican womens' groups are doing is so important. And equally, the raising of awareness by enlightened Dominican men among others not so enlightened.

[mountainannie]

It is interesting to note that internationally among feminist groups there was this outcry against female circumcision in Africa--now termed female genital mutilation- and at international women's conferences the African women were all up in the faces of the others saying "It is our culture. You are being imperialistic. But the foreign women just kept at it, just kept talking about it, saying that it was completely unacceptable, what they were doing to their daughters.

Of course, the mothers were doing it because the men wanted the women that way. Because the men found them more sexually pleasurable that way. And so a woman who was not circumcised, who had not had her clitoris removed and vagina sewn up, would simply not be eligible. And in most parts of Africa, women still bring a dowry price to the family, so they are a commodity.

I know one of the feminist groups here is just reading "Women who run with the Wolves" which is now translated into Spanish... and we read that, what... 15 years ago.. so I think that it is going to spread faster than 50 years...

In the States now there is a new phenomena of older women with younger men, of women over 40 with men at least ten and even twenty years younger. Many are attributing this to the sexual difference but to me it is more in the mindset of equality. It is how soon do the men understand that once a woman is able to provide for herself and her children economically, she is no longer going to be a servant and a possession.

It is only the Baby Boomers who really were exposed to this concept. Very few women of my mother's generation even had the mind set. I mean, even Simone de Beauvoir did Jean Paul Sartre's laundry

So I say that we keep on saying that it is unacceptable to hit women.
It is unacceptable to sell your daughters to foreigners for xxxx pesos a month or a night.
It is unacceptable to train your daughters to be sexualized objects, to wear tight fitting clothes and tolerate insulting remarks and harrassments from strangers at the beach.
It is unacceptable that a President of a nation should brag that his nation has the best prostitutes in the world and then expect that he should have a political life after that.

I think that the women in this country have every right to be really really angry.

and boy
one day

they are going to blow

I am looking forward to seeing it

because i think that if article 30 passes without any modification,and I think it will,.... then we are going really see some really angry bitches!

[mountainannie]

Another story about the culture here... down in Pedernales a Peace Corps volunteer was having so much trouble talking to the local women about breast feeding and the merits of it. Because the practice there was for the father to send money for the formula and only for that. The mother would proudly keep the cans of formula for the entire first year. At the baby's first birthday, the mother would have a formal portrait of the baby taken, in front of the stacks of the empty cans of baby formula. "See how much your daddy loves you?"

Because, that was the only thing that the father did.

It is not uncommon to hear Dominican men brag about how many children their father's and grandfather's had.... followed quickly by... of course, they never took care of them.....

such is machismo

[las2137]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lu

Is this true? I am not saying you are wrong, I am just astounded. "Expect" to be beaten? "Expect." Violence and love? Wow. Astounded.

Have to agree with Matilda... sadly this is not limited to the DR but common in many cultures. In the project that I mentioned earlier, the crux of activities has focused on education. Forget about not knowing the law regarding violence against women, many women do not even know that it is wrong for a man to beat their partners. Or that abuse doesn't have to be physical, it can be psychological, economic, etc.

I think Matilda raises an important point about gender-based violence. Too often it is seen as a man vs. woman thing, when it is more complex. The project I mentioned earlier deals with assistance to survivors of gender-based violence. Even a few men have come through with legitimate claims for assistance. (Considering the machismo in this country, I find it courageous that the men have come forward.)

Same goes for cheating. I have a Latina friend (not Dominican, but in another Latin American country) who has 3 children with her husband. In addition, her husband has 3 other children with 3 other women, all of which were born after he was married to my friend. Who does my friend blame for all the affairs and children? The other women, of course! Not her dear husband who has merely fallen into these devious women's traps... (And those are the ones she knows about...)

[mountainannie]

I have heard from people here that if a woman is having problems with her man's other lover or mistress, the women are supposed to work it out between them. Is this so? That the women actually talk to one another?