A Better DR

[Bayx-**]

Definably corruption because it will eliminate all the other problems.

[catcherintherye]

A.Hilalgo,

Why would you guess that? Not that it really matters, does it?

If you disagree with my opinion state your case, but please don't attempt to create a pseudo-conflict about something that is not pertenent to the issue.

It's so much more honest to openly debate the real issue rather than to rely on a red herring as a way to circumvent what is really important.

[A.Hidalgo]

Your sense of humor, if you have one is in the dumps. Lighten up a bit.

[catcherintherye]

Sorry, I guess your right about that. I have a lot of other things on my mind right now.
I apologize.

[cobraboy]

Unfortunately, there was no selection for my #1 "fix" for the DR: a functioning Civil Service system to take patronage off the electoral strategy tool shelf.

It would be nice to go into a gubmint office and find someone who actually knew what was going on, and wasn't a party hack.

Eliminating patronage and increasing gubmint effieicncy and customer service would be allow for better progress in every area of DR society.

[London_Calling]

I voted for education but would agree with cobraboy that one of the key issues is the lack of a professional civil service.

[Criss Colon]

You can't solve any of the other problems in the DR if you don't have a reliable,lower cost, system of electricity distribution first!
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[solisdad2000]

Corruption is a symptom, not the problem.

Education is probably quite near to the root cause but even education itself is not the real cause of DR's problem.

In my opinion, the true cause of all their ills is the complete lack of pride. With lack of pride (not low pride, no pride), there is no meaning to verguensa, which clearly Dominicanos do not suffer from. There are a few signs telling people not to make a mess of the countryside but, in reality, nobody (e.g government, schools, church, parents, employers, etc.) has any pride and everyone just wants to be a millionaire overnight (and that's what they think all foreigners are, millionaires who didn't work for their money).

There's no pride for the country, thus they live like pigs (but pigs have the excuse that humans make them live that way) and discard their litter (and worse) in the streets and even their own yards - or ours. Even in houses where there are toilets, both children and adults urinate in the yard!

There's no pride in work - service is generally without a smile, quality is almost non-existent and if money can be gained without doing the job, that's what will be done.

There's no pride in achievement - success is followed by active attempst by others to undermine the success. Dominicanos want to make everyone sink to the lowest possible level. Take someone who buys a new car. First thing that happens? People who pass it try to scratch it. Why? Just to drag the owner down. Nobody strives to be better or applauds when others are.

There's no pride in effort - Dominicanos are lazy. The quickest, easiest outcome is always better than doing anything properly. For example, they put up a concrete electricity pole here 3 weeks ago when a wooden one blew down. It was the first pole to fall down when last week's Tropical storm hit, because they didn't install it properly! They'll install it improperly again some time soon.

There's no pride in being employed. Some jobs are beneath them! When I started out, I did what was legal and paid, nothing was "beneath" me.

There's no pride in honour. People steal at any opportunity. For heavens sake - they even steal within their own families!


Pride needs to be taught by the Government, Schools, parents and Employers. A hard job when none of them have any!

{Solisdad2000)

[catcherintherye]

Solisdad2000,
I understand your frustration, and I understand why you have reached the conclusions you have reached. But any generalization is false from the start. It is impossible to take an entire population and put them into a single discriptive category, as you have with Dominicans.
Things aren't that simple. In addition, it does no good to categorize in such a negative way without offering factual data to support your conclusions. It also does no good to make those assumptions without trying to explain how this situation developed and what can be done about it.
I can think of some reasons why the characteristics you describe might be manifesting themselves at this point, and you don't have to look too far back in history.
Just review the 30 year rule of Truillo, and the string of quasi-clones that followed. That type of leadership would tend to have a devastating effect on any population.

[solisdad2000]

catcherintherye

I hate electronic communications - so easy to misinterpret emotion! So trust this answer is supplied in good spirit - no antagonism intended ;-)

1. I accept it's a generalisation. But it's not unfair (see below). The tiny proportion of Dominicans I've met who appear to be honourable tell me the same as I stated above! They're as frustrated by it as I am! But there are so few of them!

2. I'm the first to admit that life's so much more complicated than can be described by a generalisation. I'm sure I could give a better answer if I wrote a book (including better argued cases and examples or evidence) but I doubt anyone wants me to publish one in this forum :-)

3. I've travelled a great deal of this world and lived in various parts of it. Some places I've been to were VERY poor, such as just about all of West Africa. Many places had suffered poor leadership (such as dictatorship). And we can all see current and past dictatorships on the news (e,g. all of Germany under Hitler, East Germany under communist puppets ruling for Russia, China under Mao, Cuba, etc.). None of these places seem to compare to the endemic attitudes that do so much harm here. (The only place I personally know of that could have compared is Nigeria, where even their own government acknowledged that the world-wide reputation of their people was unflattering and that they were in fact thieves - their own government's words, not mine! Then the government started to do something to change things. A lesson for the DR?)

4. I have a close and direct view of Dominicanos (I'm not just an observer, I participate in their lives as do they in mine). My wife (9 years married together) is a Constansera, so my in-laws are Dominicanos, all but one of my "friends" here are Dominicanos and all my business relationships here (agriculture, horticulture, tourism, other ventures) are all with Dominicanos. So my views are based on long term (more than 11 years) close interaction with real Dominicanos.

5. Go to New York or Miami. Go to a shopping mall frequented by Dominicanos. Watch as any Dominicano enters a store (the stores recognise them). As soon as the first shop assistant or manager notices, the whispers will fly, warning all the store employees to watch carefully. In New York or Miami, many shops treat all Dominicanos as potential thieves. This is based on their actual experience and is because, although they too generalise, the truth is that they cannot tell the difference between the good ones and the majority! I go to New York and Miami (or Fort Lauderdale) regularly and I've frequently witnessed this, much to my initial amazement.

6. All the Dominicanos I know (rich, poor, employed, unemployed, educated, illiterate, honest, not, etc.) warn me "No confia en nadie".

7. I live in Constanza which is not in itself remote. My work and interests takes me into the mountains beyond Constanza (away from Santo Domingo). I am repeatedly advised, even by politicians, sindico and the Police, that I must obtain a gun for my own personal safety and be known to carry one. Even the main road from Autopista Duarte to Constanza is considered dangerous to travel alone, without protection. I am further advised never to stop if alone - not for anyone, not even for Police/Army and the Police and Army are part of who gives me this advice.

8. In only 2 years of actually living here (though I visited for 9+ years before that) and excluding the every day attempt to charge foreigners more than a fair price for anything), I have personally been robbed or cheated by (or attempts made), lied to, lied about or had property damaged by: "friends" I have known for 11 years, people who treated me as their adopted family, in-laws, business associates, Aduanas, lawyers*, plumbers*, gardeners, garage employees (Toyota)*, car sellers (stores in SD)*, government employees (at all levels in almost every department I had to visit to get my residential visa), the Dominican Republic's Embassy in the UK, Police, companies (especially TV, telephone and internet), Airport authorities, doctors, Car Rental company (at the SD airport), local curtain manufacturers/suppliers, wasking machine repair company, neighbours, and the list goes on...
(* yes, I accept that some professions and trades have the same and arguably justified bad reputation world wide, not just for Dominicanos!)

9. I am currently helping a local Dominicana (who I didn't previously know) who's husband died in an accident at work while employed overseas. I was asked to help her by local Dominicanos who personally know me well, when they discovered that people were trying to cheat the wife of compensation and her husbands effects (including clothes, jewellery, money, insurance settlements, funeral expenses, temporary company assitance, etc). I have definitive, documented proof (reviewed and accepted by the husband's overseas employers, following investigations I made that were aided by a foreign lawyer based overseas) that the identified culprits are all Dominicanos and include: more than half (20+) of the co-workers who were working with the now deceased husband, the works supervisor, the supervisor's uncle (who is not employed in the same work or by the same company), the supervisor's sister (who works for a Dominicana bank in the DR) and one of the wife's brothers (who was another employee of the company).

10. I just completed helping a local Dominicano who works for me but is also someone I meet with socially, outside of work (perhaps a friend, more a friend of a friend and a near neighbour). I prevented his being made homeless. The people who acted in such a way as to potentially cause him to be homeless were his deceased wife that he was always faithful to and personally devotedly cared for during the several years she spent bedridden and dying (who before her death illegally arranged for legal documents transferring their joint home entirely two her two eldest children, who were not his children but he provided for them for 19 years!) and those two same children (who on the death of the mother attempted to force the sale of the house which they also wanted to be vacant prior to sale - so they used lawyers to try to illegally force this). The wife's two eldest children (now adults) both demanded (of their adoptive father) 4 times the sum that was their legal entitlement and attempted to disenfranchise both the father and their two half- siblings (brother and sister, both now adults, children of their mother and adoptive father) of all of their legal rights to part of the property. A lawyer illegally conspired to assist in the illegal transfer of the property to the wife's two children.

11. Some of the most senior people I know in this country (with direct day-to-day contact with THE most senior people in the country) have personally told me that no politician can succeed here, however moral or honourable, without participating in the corruption. They would never reach a decision-making role or level if they didn't participate.


But, as someone rightly said in a separate discussion (and as I said above), yes, it's a generalisation but if it's recognised as such, then I believe it's fair comment. Clearly there are always exceptions to any generalisation.

It's very sad and I especially feel sorry for those Dominicanos who have pride and are honourable, hard working, etc. Yes, I do recognise they exist. If only they would wear a label so we could recognise them! :-)

{Solisdad2000}