DR Spanish and globalisation

[Lesley D]

Please see above I just added a paragraph to my response. I still beg to differ.

Originally Posted by Pib

The thing -that has nothing to do with rules- is that one may sound a bit pretentious when using 'the correct pronounciation'. Specially in languages other than English that is more common around here.

Chiri and I have discussed this: Most times I refrain from pronouncing many 'foreign' words correctly simply because it sounds affected to my ears, even when I know perfectly well the correct pronounciation. A lot of people could be doing the same thing.

An example: I can pronounce the French Rs correctly. However, if I am speaking either Spanish or English and I have to say, Creme Brulée, for example, I don't use 'french rs' because it makes me sound like Pepe Le Peu.

[mariel]

Thanks for the correction Lesley.

I can pronounce the French Rs correctly. However, if I am speaking either Spanish or English and I have to say, Creme Brulée, for example, I don't use 'french rs' because it makes me sound like Pepe Le Peu.

Isn't that to speak with an accent?

I too sound like Pepe le Pew if i dare to say those french r's.

[Chirimoya]

It is absolutely valid to make a distinction about what is correct and what is usage. Neither the Spaniards nor the Dominicans are saying 'Burger King' correctly, but it is interesting to note the different inclinations: the Latin Americans who are strongly influenced by English speaking culture will emulate the (US) English pronunciation, while the Spanish will change it to sound more Spanish. The point I made - and I admit it was garbled - was that global communications will make the English pronunciation universal.

Traditionally, in the UK at least, it is considered affected to emulate the source language pronunciation - 'Don Quixote' is not pronounced the 'correct' way but is 'quick-sote' which sounds absurd to us Spanish speakers. Following this rule it is perfectly all right to say 'creme brulee' without sounding like a second rate Inspector Clouseau.

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Interesting topic.

I note the following:

For "Chevrolet":

Americans: SHEV-row-ley
French: Chey-row-LEY
Dominicans: CHEV-row-ley

Seems to me that this discussion can only be about tendencies and affect, not about rules. There are no steadfast rules.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Porfio_Rubirosa

Interesting topic.

I note the following:

For "Chevrolet":

Americans: SHEV-row-ley
French: Chey-row-LEY
Dominicans: CHEV-row-ley

Seems to me that this discussion can only be about tendencies and affect, not about rules. There are no steadfast rules.

Mexicans: CHEH-bee

[Lesley D]

Porfio_Rubirosa,

How do you know there are no rules? Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion? I am curious.

In the meantime this is my response to your post:

Your examples tie into my post above about “las Normas de transcripción”. The way a “foreign” word is pronounced from language to language follows the phonetic rules of transcription. There is definitely a rule. Nothing is accidental. Once again the way a group of people or population pronounces the word may or may not represent the correct phonetic pronunciation. Language skills do come into play. Your example “Chevrolet” and the way it is pronounced in three Latin alphabetized languages; English, French, Spanish (in particular Dominican Spanish per your example) for each letter in one language, the rule is to find the closest sound in the other language being spoken and people who speak either of the languages mentioned above have the inclination to do this instinctively. According to this reference Manual de Español Urgente here are some examples:

English [oo] is equivalent to Spanish [u]
English [ee] is equivalent to Spanish [i,y]
English [th] is equivalent to Spanish [z] or depending on where the [th] is in the English word it could be English [th] is equivalent Spanish [d] (as well regional variances in Spanish countries could make the latter vary slightly).

Since you are convinced there are no rules and I recommend this reference Manual de Español Urgente it is an in depth reference detailing transcription rules (see examples above), pronunciation of “foreign words” in Spanish and when they should or should not be hispanicized, topónimos and gentilicios and how they are formed. Once again the way the average population speaks, I refer to foreign words etc. specifically does not always exemplify what is correct.

Please note I am not questioning the pronunciation variations that you sited and I am just always suprised when someone is comfortable saying there are no rules (in a language) when there are rules clearly outlined in many language references.

-Lesley D

Originally Posted by Porfio_Rubirosa

Interesting topic.

I note the following:

For "Chevrolet":

Americans: SHEV-row-ley
French: Chey-row-LEY
Dominicans: CHEV-row-ley

Seems to me that this discussion can only be about tendencies and affect, not about rules. There are no steadfast rules.

[Lesley D]

Chirimoya,

Thanks for clarifying your post. To be honest with you parts of what you said had me quite preoccupied.

-Lesley D

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

It is absolutely valid to make a distinction about what is correct and what is usage. Neither the Spaniards nor the Dominicans are saying 'Burger King' correctly, but it is interesting to note the different inclinations: the Latin Americans who are strongly influenced by English speaking culture will emulate the (US) English pronunciation, while the Spanish will change it to sound more Spanish. The point I made - and I admit it was garbled - was that global communications will make the English pronunciation universal.

Traditionally, in the UK at least, it is considered affected to emulate the source language pronunciation - 'Don Quixote' is not pronounced the 'correct' way but is 'quick-sote' which sounds absurd to us Spanish speakers. Following this rule it is perfectly all right to say 'creme brulee' without sounding like a second rate Inspector Clouseau.

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Originally Posted by Lesley D

Porfio_Rubirosa,

How do you know there are no rules? Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion? I am curious...

Since you are convinced there are no rules and I recommend this reference Manual de Español Urgente it is an in depth reference detailing transcription rules (see examples above), pronunciation of “foreign words” in Spanish and when they should or should not be hispanicized, topónimos and gentilicios and how they are formed. Once again the way the average population speaks, I refer to foreign words etc. specifically does not always exemplify what is correct.

How do you feel about the word "semantics"?

If a "rule" is continually not followed more often than it is, then it stops being a true rule because it has not been popularly adopted. At that point, it becomes a statement of ivory tower principles. That is what I think we are dealing with here.

[Lesley D]

A rule continually not followed by whom? This has nothing to do with semantics either.

It is amazing that you can come to such an unresearched conclusion based on a few examples or observations that you have made. The Spanish language is one of the most diverse in the world from a lexical and pronunciation stand point but rules are standard. I strongly beg to differ and I know that the rules are followed and those who don't follow grammar rules of all kinds are simply unaware that they exist.

For example verbs in Spanish. It is not an option to conjugate them properly. If someone does not conjugate a verb properly it is incorrect based on the rules on how to conjugate verbs and others who choose to follow suit means they are not following the rule either but it does not mean there is no rule in place.

I often hear many verb flaws by Spanish speakers in the USA and the DR. My favorite example is the verb "traer" in the simple past tense. Instead of "traje" I often hear "traí" which means the speaker is thinking that it is a regular "er" verb that can be conjugated like "comer" i.e "comí". So based on your analogy if people continue to say "traí" the rule for irregular "er" verbs like "traer" can be overlooked. The way how I see it is the person simply does not know the rule rather than Spanish speakers should start saying this erroneous form.

"Andar" too is one that I often hear in the DR as "andé" instead of "anduve". Mind you it is not a standard but I have heard it....more than once.

-Lesley D

Originally Posted by Porfio_Rubirosa

How do you feel about the word "semantics"?

If a "rule" is continually not followed more often than it is, then it stops being a true rule because it has not been popularly adopted. At that point, it becomes a statement of ivory tower principles. That is what I think we are dealing with here.

[Chirimoya]

Rules are rules, there is no argument there. But the essence of this discussion is that the dominance of English in global communications will shape the evolution of the Spanish language through usage. The RAE might be on the case, drawing up rules to determine whether we should say 'hambOOrguer', 'hambErguer' or 'hamburguesa' but at the end of the day it is usage that will determine what people are saying.

Andé for anduve is common in other places as well. It may end up becoming an accepted variation - through usage.

Journalists are always my best example when they read the news in Spanish and they come across an English word they use English pronunciation which is correct.

I'm quite sensitive to this issue. I've heard newsreaders here saying 'Rooters' for 'Reuters' and 'Notre Dame' with 'dame' pronounced as in 'there is nothing like a dame'. But none of these are English words. I also find it strange hearing a Spanish speaker saying 'Harry Potter' with a strong north American accent - 'Hairy Paaarrr'. Why not just pronounce it phonetically - 'Hari Po-ter' - if you're speaking Spanish?

Then again we don't say 'I'm going to Paree for the weekend' or 'My cousin is working in Moskva', do we?