Bien Dicho- #2

[Norma Rosa]

Originally Posted by Tordok

Funny, it is not uncommon for Dominicans to say "Ramón hoy está en tragos".
You also could hear "Ramón hoy está de tragos". "Tragos", BTW is often substituted by "bebedera" with the same basic construction and both phrases mean the same thing: "Ramón is into drinking today". I suspect both are grammatically incorrect. Any feedback, Lesley? (not about Ramon's drinking, but about the way we construct these phrases.
thank,
- Tordok

I've never heard estar en tragos in the DR. That I know of, we use estar de tragos or estar metido en tragos. The same as estar de parranda, estar de fiesta.

[BIZC8]

Originally Posted by Lesley D

I did not want to start a new thread for this grammar point however, I wanted to post it somewhere to reiterate what I have said many times and a few other posters as well regarding the 's' in certain verb forms and tenses.

In general, many Spanish speakers have complete verb control and there are many speakers who struggle with correct verb conjugation due to many factors. Some may find it strange that one can't conjugate verbs in his/ her own language but this happens in English too. Many speakers err and conjugate verbs incorrectly.

In Spanish, one of the common incorrect verb conjugations is adding 's' to the tú form of the preterit tense. It is believed in sociolinguistic studies that the reason for this that all other 'tú' form conjugations in other tenses have 's'. The preterit tense is the only one that does not. Therefore, by force of habit speakers tend to add 's' and in fact it's incorrect.

This is a phenomenon I have observed for many years and in my esteem the percentage of speakers who make this error is quite high and it ranges from the well-educated speaker to the campesino from any Spanish-speaking country. Another error I observed just last week which I had not heard before was adding 's' to the present tense of the third person singular. I was visiting a friend of a friend who is Dominican from San Pedro and in general her Spanish was quite good, not very regional but as we got deeper into conversation a few icons of sociolinguistic flaws surfaced. As we were conversing the woman said to me:

'si él se vas, es bueno, es muy bueno'.

That was the first time I heard 'se vas' and the woman repeated it many times so it wasn't just a one time error in her speech.

In general, IMO the 's' is a problem in the Dominican vernacular both dropping it excessively and adding it where it does not belong. These speech patterns are not recommended to foreigners in terms of imitating. In the Spanish-speaking world proper and correct speech is admired and recognized.


-LDG.

Hello Lesley and I hope my response finds you well. One of the things I admire most is someone who can speak and write well. I must admit, your knowledge and competency of linguistics are laudable.

Now to the substance of my comment. I have also made the observation of certain native Spanish speakers who add "s" to the past tense verb conjugation of the second person (hablastes, dijistes, salistes). I have found this to be more significantly prevalent among the Central American & Mexican communities. I was once bold enough to graciously address this with someone and found complete and total reluctance to admit he was mistaken. Rather than perpetuating the debate, I referred him to the proper resources via email. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he'll decide to get back to me after having read it, but rest assured the habit is so intricately permeated in his colloquial speech it would take an astronomical, superhuman effort on his part to eradicate it. Not that it can't be done, just that he probably won't have the will nor the desire.

It bewilders me how (and I don't mean to come across as arrogant) people who have spent their entire life in their home Spanish speaking country have less of a mastery of the Spanish language than I do who migrated from the DR at the age of 13 and have lived in the US since then (I'm now 40). Mindful, all my Spanish based instruction came to a screeching halt when I set foot here. I will say though, that if there's something I can attribute what little mastery of Spanish I have it would have to be that I enjoy reading; I'm curious and I'm resourceful and whatever I don't know, I research. It's absolutely unbelievable how a small habit such as reading can make the difference in someone's life in terms of their ability to simply cope, adapt and succeed.

Muchas bendiciones y gracias porque disfruto tus comentarios.

Chao.

[Lesley D]

BIZC8,

First of all many thanks for recognizing my comments and most of all for reading them. Yes, all is well on my end and I have much to be thankful for. All the best to you.


I completely agree with your post and your observations are very interesting. You addressed two key issues. The first one is the usage of the 's' in the tú form of the preterit tense. I understand why you have singled out Central Americans and Mexicans as the speech population that mostly uses this incorrect form. However, over time I noticed it's impossible to single out a specific group since the error is so common across the Spanish-speaking world. Over the years, I found it best to estimate a percentage of speakers rather than a specific Spanish-speaking group by nationality because the more I speak to people the more I hear the error. I have heard it from Venezuelans and Peruvians from the South American countries, Central America as you mentioned but from other countries as well. At one point I thought the speakers of the Caribbean region were the ones who made the error the least until I heard some songs (la música tropical) and that changed my whole perspective. Not to say that Daddy Yankee is a role model but in a album release last year one of the top songs was "tú me dejaste caer" BUT in the song and on the album cover he says "tú me dejastes caer y ella me levantó". When I first heard it I thought how can anyone convince those who make the error that it's incorrect when they hear it in daily speech and in songs. The error is very widespread but should not to be duplicated by those who are learning Spanish. I experienced the same resistance as you have with a Venezuelan friend of mine. A mutual friend of ours at the time asked him why do you say 'hablastes', 'cambiastes', 'llamastes' etc and he asked her what's wrong with that. Our mutual friend explained to him that the 's' is incorrect with that verb tense and he refused to believe her even when she showed him the verb conjugation tables. It's unbelievable how Spanish speakers don't realize it's incorrect. I see it as the equivalent of saying 'I goes' in English.

In general, one's environment which means the home, school, social circle etc heavily influences the way a person speaks and/ or chooses to speak. We all err when we speak in any language but most people strive to speak well since it says something about the person or the speaker. One's speech in general is a reflection of the way a person carries himself/ herself. At least that's my philosophy. If one is learning a language the same goal should be desired.

Regarding reading I have many posts and a few threads dedicated to the importance of reading. I can’t stress it enough. Whether it's reading reference materials to increase one's knowledge in Spanish or novels to improve one's grammar and sentence structure. IMO, one of the biggest assets one can gain from reading in Spanish is vocabulary. Spanish has a vast vocabulary however, I would say most speakers use a very small percentage of possible Spanish words especially synonyms. Just this past weekend I was reminded of this fact when I used select vocabulary in Spanish and I was told that the word does not exist. I checked in the dictionary just to be sure that it was a real word and that I used it correctly. After proving correct usage I was nicely told, 'bueno tú ganaste como siempre'.


Keep reading my posts and don’t hesitate to share your observations. I will respond to your PM.


Muchos saludos,


-LDG.

[Norma Rosa]

Originally Posted by BIZC8

I have also made the observation of certain native Spanish speakers who add "s" to the past tense verb conjugation of the second person (hablastes, dijistes, salistes). I have found this to be more significantly prevalent among the Central American & Mexican communities. I was once bold enough to graciously address this with someone and found complete and total reluctance to admit he was mistaken. Rather than perpetuating the debate, I referred him to the proper resources via email. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he'll decide to get back to me after having read it, but rest assured the habit is so intricately permeated in his colloquial speech it would take an astronomical, superhuman effort on his part to eradicate it. Not that it can't be done, just that he probably won't have the will nor the desire.Chao.

The fundamental reason behind the erroneous "s" in the preterite, second person singular (i.e.: comistes, bebistes) is due to the pattern established in other verbal tenses.

Indicative (present: tú dices) - (future: tú dirás) - (imperfect:tú decías) - (conditional:tú dirías).

Subjuntivo: (present: digas) - (imperfect: dijeras/dijeses)

This "s" is also present in the helping verbs of the perfect tenses: Tú has dicho, habrás dicho, habías dicho, habrías dicho, hubieras dicho, hayas dicho, etc.

Although considered a vulgarism -used chiefly by uneducated individuals- the fact is that this error is showing up everywhere, even in newspapers.

The vulgarism might be more apparent in regions where letter "s" is not aspirated.

Norma