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  #1  
Old 02-12-2006, 01:59 PM
La flor y nata
 
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Lesley D Level 2 (83)
Default Dígalo bien...

I enjoy reading another message board regularly and I came across an interesting thread about socio-linguistic aspects and stereotypes in PR culture that thoroughly caught my attention. It is known, it has also been proven and researched by many linguists etc. that there are certain elements of speech that are attributed to speakers of the Caribbean region and those elements are attributed to speech patterns of African slaves during colonization. Without a doubt these linguistic features survived in the Caribbean for diverse reasons, the primary reason being that certain areas have been rural up until fifty years ago approx. and secondly isolation has enabled speech patterns to remain and pervade rather than evolve.

The socio-linguistic critique in a thread on zonai.com identified the same erroneous speech patterns that I have mentioned many times before in two key threads in particular- Como hablamos los dominicanos and Dialectology Issues. What I found interesting was the self- critique of Puerto Ricans of their own erroneous speech patterns and the fact that they are identical to Dominican speech patterns that are still heard today and remain unchallenged.

Here are a few from the thread that in my opinion are important to note, analyze and some are also heard in many areas of Latin America:


From zonai.com/foros

1. Cuídese de sustituir la "M" por la "N". Decir estábanos, habíanos, decíanos, andábanos, etc., no es correcto.

There is not much to comment here other than these forms are incorrect. In Spanish {M} is not substituted for {N}. Verb forms in particular should not be altered. The only correct forms are: estábamos, habíamos, decíamos, andábamos.

2. También cuídese de agregar una "S" al final de las palabras. NO diga: hicistes, vistes, trajistes, comistes, dormistes, fuistes, etc.

This is the ultimate when it comes to 'non- cultured' forms of Spanish IMO. Adding [s] to the form of the preterit tense is more common than it should be even among Spanish speakers who speak very well. In my experience there is not a pattern that is conclusive or associated with one country or region because I have heard the above examples from the best and worst of speakers. This definitely is not a speech pattern that should be adopted and one should know that it is absolutely incorrect. Unfortunately it is prevalent in Latin America.

3. Más común y errado es sustituir la "R" por una "L" como en peldón, palking, mejol, o hasta al pedir las "culs lai" (Coors Light).

I don’t need to go into depth about this speech pattern, which is a coined trademark of PR Spanish and parts of the DR. However, these forms are considered substandard from a linguistic point of view.

4. Evite también usar palabras acuñadas en los campos de nuestro país como; haiga, diferiencia, pior, alevántate, naidien, arrempújalo, dispués, estijeras, díceselo, mai o pai, legartijo, etc.

I think this was well stated 'acuñadas en los campos de nuestro país'. This definitely supports my statement in my opening paragraphs above the fact that some LA countries were rural and only recently (the last fifty years +) began to urbanize. This factor prevented inherent rural patterns from evolving combined with the lack of education of the populace. The examples above are what are called 'vulgarismos' in linguistics terms (not the traditional English meaning). Vulgarismo is defined as:

-los hablantes que no han recibido una educación suficiente utilizan un código restringido y deficiente, y como están poco familiarizados con el lenguaje escrito, cometen abundantes incorrecciones. (Source: Gramática Práctica-A.Mozas).

5. Ni se le ocurra usar adaptaciones "hechas en casa" del inglés al español como lonche (almuerzo), rufo (techo), boila (caldera), marqueta (colmado), y otras.

We have had many discussions in the past about angliscims (the most recent one is the thread titled Anglicismos). Anyone who has read any of my posts on this subject knows my position. Anglicisms pose a threat to the authenticity of the Spanish language. Anglicized words used in Spanish show evidence of the co-existence of the two languages in a region, the strong influence of the English in Spanish, lack of vocabulary knowledge in Spanish by the speaker and the biggest impact is the fact that some anglicized words used in Spanish don’t have the intended Spanish meaning but continue to be used in Spanish.

Here are some examples of this concept:

-carpeta –with the intended meaning of carpet but carpeta means cartera para archivar cosas in Spanish.
- tomar acción- with the intended meaning of take action the correct Spanish equivalent would be actuar.

(There are many more examples in the day-to-day speech of many that evidence this influence of English in Spanish and a change of semantics).

6. Los superlativos redundantes no van. "Más mejor" y "más peor" no hacen mayor lo que ya es mejor o peor.

I have heard this too and this is strictly a grammatical issue. If something is in the superlative form it is the highest degree it cannot be any higher. The equivalent of good/ better/ best in English is what is being critiqued above. The Spanish version is: bueno/ mejor/ el/la mejor. I too am puzzled by the usage of 'más major' etc.

7. Otras redundancias incluyen frases como: Métete pa' dentro, Súbete pa'rriba, Se le salió pa' afuera, Bájate pa' bajo.

These forms just make no sense because of the redundancy. Every now and then I do hear these forms used and I truly believe the speaker is not aware that what s/he is saying is redundant and incorrect. Can you imagine- Súbete pa'rriba. Once again I was having an interesting language discussion recently with a Cuban friend of mine and she said to me: 'Lesley son ejemplos de su incultura'. I completely agree. Her short phrase summarized it all.

Other speech patterns, grammatical flaws etc were critiqued in the thread on zonai.com however, these are the ones I thought were the most interesting to analyze. Some patterns are inherent that date back to the 17thC as discussed in my thread on Dialectology Issues and others patterns are recent influences and trends such as anglicisms which will continue to challenge those who speak Spanish and governing bodies such as the RAE and its affiliates.


-LDG.

Last edited by Lesley D; 02-13-2006 at 12:30 AM.
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  #2  
Old 02-12-2006, 02:23 PM
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Chirimoya Level 4 Chirimoya Level 4 Chirimoya Level 4 (276)
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Lesley, this is sterling stuff!

También cuídese de agregar una "S" al final de las palabras. NO diga: hicistes, vistes, trajistes, comistes, dormistes, fuistes, etc.

I'm sure I'm guilty of this one now and again. I'll take note and try and put a stop to it.

Evite también usar palabras acuñadas en los campos de nuestro país como; haiga, diferiencia, pior, alevántate, naidien, arrempújalo, dispués, estijeras, díceselo, mai o pai, legartijo, etc.

How about 'eja' for 'ceja'? I've heard that from quite a few people in the DR. I think it happens because they think the 's' sound comes from the article: "Las cejas" - and instead of saying 'una ceja' they say 'una eja'.

Also (not just in the DR) 'malamente' for badly, when 'mal' is the correct adverb.

That's what I love about languages, even English in which I'm supposedly fluent. There's always something new to learn.

Last edited by Chirimoya; 02-12-2006 at 09:31 PM. Reason: grammatical error, of all things.
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  #3  
Old 02-12-2006, 03:30 PM
La flor y nata
 
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Lesley D Level 2 (83)
Default Chirimoya-

You are right regarding the theory about the [s] and las cejas. Actually, there are examples provided in the thread on zonai.com about this phenomenon as well.

Regarding adverbs I personally have not heard 'malamente' used however, my friends have told me many times that people do say 'malamente' which is incorrect.

What always puzzles me is how people are not aware of the incorrectness of many of these speech patterns or people who say this is just a different way of speaking Spanish. Of course there are different stylistic ways of speaking Spanish inherent in each country or region but the forms must be grammatically correct and actually exist etc. Incorrectness of forms and unawareness of them completely exemplifies the definition of vulgarismos in Spanish IMO.

Language learning is a never ending process but if you have a solid base you can identify and critique the errors made in a language rather than believe these forms are correct and the norm. A solid base enables you to identify, analyze and decipher correct forms from erroneous ones.


-LDG

Last edited by Lesley D; 02-13-2006 at 12:32 AM.
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  #4  
Old 02-14-2006, 10:39 AM
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macocael Level 1 (46)
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fascinating as always. Lesley D. I am increasingly indebted to you for all the free Spanish lessons I am getting here! I have no problem distinguishing these errors -- you will be pleased to hear -- except for number five. I would have said "tomar acción" instead of actuar simply because (1) I have heard it said, and one does learn by imitation; and (2) though I am shaking the habit, I still translate from English in my head from time to time, so the phrase would of course feel natural to me. I think Number Five here poses the biggest problems to students of Spanish. The rest can easily be avoided by learning one's grammar, but five depends more on vocabulary and usage.

Thanks again.
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  #5  
Old 02-14-2006, 12:32 PM
La flor y nata
 
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Lesley D Level 2 (83)
Arrow Macocael-

I completely agree with your assessment that example five is more of a question of vocabulary and usage. The problem with the Eng/Span duality is that the more one hears an incorrect form, translation or vocabulary usage the more one becomes comfortable with it without realizing that it may not be the right equivalent in the 'target' language of translation in this case Spanish because one understands the intended meaning. However, I believe there has to be a limit to incorrectness. "Tomar acción" is definitely a calque of the English phrase "to take action" but not the correct Spanish equivalent although it is understood.

You seem to be very grammar conscious so you will definitely succeed in whatever goal you personally set for yourself in Spanish. Grammar will enable you to triumph in time. Just be patient. You mentioned some grammar terminology last week in the discussion thread about 'gender usage' which I was pleased to see. I am glad you find my posts enjoyable and helpful because that's my sole intent when I post about certain aspects regarding Spanish, a language that is so important and at the same time surviving the best way it can in the midst of change that all languages undergo.

Te deseo mucha suerte.

Saludos
-LDG

Last edited by Lesley D; 02-14-2006 at 09:05 PM.
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  #6  
Old 02-15-2006, 03:26 AM
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Lesley I have to say i was guilty of the the carpeta example you gave when I first started learning, but my friends quickly corrected me with the proper word for carpet....It is alfombra? right? I don't know if I spelled it right.
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  #7  
Old 02-15-2006, 07:05 AM
La flor y nata
 
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Lesley D Level 2 (83)
Default Mofi-

I believe alfombra is the most generic word for carpet in Spanish. However, I noticed tapete is quite common in South America especially Colombia.

-LDG.
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Old 02-15-2006, 09:48 AM
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andrea9k Level 1 (10)
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In other parts of South America... if it is thick and covers a big extension of the room it is an "alfombra", if it is not that thick it is a "tapiz", if it is little it is a "tapete" or "alfombrita". Tapete is also the piece of fabric we put over wood furniture to protect them.
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  #9  
Old 02-15-2006, 10:11 AM
La flor y nata
 
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Lesley D Level 2 (83)
Default Andrea9K-

Thanks for the specifics. I knew tapete was more specific compared to alfombra but I did not want to elaborate without being sure. In Colombia tapete per your definition is sold in stores that sell artesanía colombiana. Very well made and colorful small floor rugs that people usually put in the middle of the floor etc.


-LDG

Last edited by Lesley D; 02-15-2006 at 02:05 PM.
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  #10  
Old 02-15-2006, 11:12 AM
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Lesley, my knowledge of grammar stems from the fact that I was once, in the past, an English professor at Columbia U. Plus I learned English the old fashioned way, grammatically, rather than phonetically,which I think is now the reigning method in North American secondary schools. Then there were Latin lessons, German lessons, French lessons . . . now it is just Spanish, along with some Kreyol.

I think reading novels helps a great deal, not only to strengthen one's vocabulary but also one's syntax. And you can distinguish the colloquialisms and vulgarisms from proper speech easily enough, because the former are usually given in dialogue form with the intention of rendering some local "flavor" and giving insight into the characters. Aristy's "Over" is a good example of this, as is Carpentier's first novel, "Ecue-Yamba-O."

One of the reasons I am preoccupied with perfecting my Spanish now is that I am beginning to write articles in the language, so I can no longer be satisfied with the usual colloquial street talk that hitherto posed no problem for me, as I made use of the colloquial manner to facilitate communication with the people among whom I was working. Also I am raising a daughter, and I want her to have examples of proper speech, both in English and Spanish, to imitate. So, time to study a little harder. If I come up with some interesting linguistic issues, I will be sure to post them. Thanks again Lesley for being so generous with your time.
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