use of preterit and imperfect vis a vis 3 verbs

[Larry]

macocael and Lesley,

Thanks to both of you for the great info in this thread. As someone in the prosess of leaning Spanish, I find threads such as this very helpful in my development.

Larry

[Sholly24]

Originally Posted by Lesley D

There are regional differences in usage as I stated in my previous post but in this case I am curious to find out your teacher's explanation of the usage (from a grammatical standpoint) because her statement was it s/b 'hacía frío ayer' which I find interesting without an explanation............

-LDG.

Yes Lesley, you are correct. I had the opportunity to clarify from my tutor and as they say in spanish 'me equivoqué'. My tutor was referring to my usage of Hizo frío when saying 'it used to be cold'. She confirmed that Hizo frío ayer is correct. What I am now understanding is that the imperfect tense can also be used for an activity that happened repeatedly in the past. i.e ''they used to call me John' will be 'me llamaban John'etc.

She also confirmed that in spain, 'have you eaten?' will be 'has comido?'

An interesting fact was that I was trying to interpret the title of the raulin rodriguez cd 'me la pusieron dificil' which she interpreted as 'they made it difficult for me' but she said that in spain, it would have been 'me lo pusieron dificil' and they rarely use 'la' in this situation but it is more common in latin america.

We are yet to interprete the meaning of 'Pongase para las cosas' . It is the title of a cuban song and we looked at the various uses of the verb Ponerse (ie to start, to put on ( a dress), to become (emotionally), to answer (the phone) etc but non seems to ring a bell. We did not have the ooportunity to listen to the song, which would have really helped but she did mention that perhaps it might be a slang that could be common in cuba or in latin america in general.

Any recommendations?

Muchisimas Gracias

Sholly ( a cibao valley lover)

[Lesley D]

As long as you understand the difference at this point I will leave it at that. I was going to go into a little more detail but I don't want to confuse you. However, in brief 'hacía frío ayer' is okay but another specific action like 'cuando salí' is understood (although not mentioned) whereas 'hizo frío ayer' just refers to that fact that 'it was cold yesterday' as you mentioned in your second post.

Regarding 'have you eaten yet'. That's exactly my point. Spain favors the compound tenses and Latin America does not (en general). In Latin America 'has comido' would be 'comiste' for sure. I would never ask anyone 'has comido'. Honestly, it would sound strange to me.

As for 'me la pusieron difícil'. For sure that is correct for me but I just learned something new from you 'me lo pusieron difícil'. Again the usage of 'lo' instead of 'la' does not sound instinctive to me. In Spanish with lo/la sometimes you have to think what 'lo/la' represent(s). Me la pusieron difícil- what? la situación. Do you understand?

As for the Cuban expression, I will leave that for Juancarlos but I will say 'póngase para las cosas' is new for me but I think I know what it means.

Well, Sholly24 you certainly are a pleasant person. If you have any more questions just ask me.


Te deseo mucha suerte,

-LDG.

[juancarlos]

Hi Lesley and Sholly,

This is the first time I see that expression "póngase para las cosas". It must be new slang in Cuba. I would guess that its meaning could be something like "mind your bussiness" or "take care of things that are really important" or who knows, perhaps it means wake-up! in the figurative sense. The thing is I had never heard this phrase before. There is a lot of slang in Cuba, as well as new meaning for old words, that is truly foreign to me. If I lived in Miami and were in touch with the latest Cubans arriving there, then I would have a better idea. It has been 7 years since I last visited the island and when I was there I spent most of the time with my relatives and pretty much stuck to conventional conversation. The only "new" phrase I heard constantly was "no es facil". It is not easy.

[Quisqueya]

Lesley:Regarding 'have you eaten yet'. That's exactly my point. Spain favors the compound tenses and Latin America does not (en general). In Latin America 'has comido' would be 'comiste' for sure. I would never ask anyone 'has comido'. Honestly, it would sound strange to me.

Lesley I've noticed that hispanohablantes tend to use the "pretérito simple" more so than "pretérito perfecto" more or so based on their level of education(my own opinion). The more you encounter people from latin america that have gone to higher learning institutions (universities) or well read use the compound tenses.

As a french speaker I tend to feel more comfortable using the compound tenses "pretérito perfecto" rather than the "pretérito simple" which is more common but both grammatically correct. IMO, using the auxiliary correctly demonstrates the person have mastered the language and have more options available depending on the setting and environment..

Example:

J'ai parlé avec Lesley= he hablado con Lesley or hablé con Lesley
J'ai bu= he bebido or bebí

All the above are correct again depending on the individual and the environment wanting to sound eloquent with more finesse..the pretérito perfecto prevails...

One other thing I've noticed is many hispano hablantes (especially in the caribbean) have no idea how to spell the auxilary verb "haber"

too many times I've come across..

e hablado= rather than he hablado
a hablado= rather than ha hablado

I've even seen the use of the past participle of irregular verbs such as "escribido" rather than "escrito".


No soy cubano but I would translate "póngase para las cosas" as

Mind you business or stay in your place...

great post...

[Lesley D]

¿Qué tal? - Siempre es un placer hablar contigo. Espero que todo te vaya bien.

Regarding the compound tenses it's actually not a question of education it's a question of how the Spanish language evolved in Spain vs. Latin America. It's very important to make that distinction. As I said earlier in the thread. Only 10% of the world's Spanish speaking population lives in Spain. The bulk lives in Latin America or is from Latin America therefore diversity is a must.

In the many references I have had to read over time the usage of tenses is always a topic in Spanish grammar as compared to the other Latin based languages. Spanish is the only Romance based language that uses the preterit tense in speech as compared to French or Italian. It is used in Spain too however, the usage of the compound tenses is more prevalent there due to its geographical location. Spain, France and Italy being the 'mother' of each respective language are far removed from the Caribbean therefore speech patterns etc. that became prevalent in the Caribbean are due to outside influences. However, verb tense usage in Spain is comparable to France and Italy.

I must note using your examples that there is a difference between 'J'ai parlé avec Lesley= he hablado con Lesley or hablé con Lesley'.

Equivalent meaning: J'ai parlé avec Lesley = He hablado con Lesley= I have spoken to Lesley

Equivalent meaning: Hablé con Lesley = I spoke to Lesley. ----> French does not use the equivalent form of the preterit in the spoken language. Do you see the difference?

In Spanish if you say 'he hablado con xxx' it refers to the recent past. If you say 'hablé con xxx ' se refiere a un tiempo más lejano'. It's further in the past. However, both are used in the spoken language equally.

It's not a question of education because if you use the compound tense 'he hablado' time is really a factor whereas if you use the preterit 'hablé' it's in the past but with no reference to time. In Spanish it would be grammatically incorrect to say 'Ayer he hablado con Lesley'. It s/b 'Ayer hablé con Lesley'. That's where the education of speaker comes into play. Distinguishing between the usage of the two BUT not choosing one over the other just by preference.


Regarding the spelling issues in the Caribbean needless to say it's a disgrace. I don't what it is and frankly I don't focus on it anymore. Spelling words without the [h] when they should have the [h] is unacceptable among the other errors in orthography that prevail. Remember reading in Spanish or any language cures all spelling issues but in general people don't read voluntarily. I am the opposite you have pull the book out of my hand.


-LDG.

[macocael]

The spelling problems are directed related to literacy and reading,and this goes for any other country. I taught in the States for years, at good colleges, and I saw this sort of problem all the time. Why? Because even in the States, where we do have high levels of literacy, people dont read enough, and literature is considered something for eggheads. It may also be the switch to phonetic based teaching in the early years, but I cannot comment on that.

Here in St Domingo the lack of reading is a constant feature of the landscape. I discussed this with Tordok on another thread. Anthropologists make a distinction between oral and written cultures, and while I dont want to press the argument too much, because after all a developing nation is obviously well into being a culture based on writing, but it does seem to me that elements of oral culture prevail here and hold sway in interesting ways. People here are very quick, verbally. They will hear a song and can repeat its lyrics instantly. Much of the traditional culture is still communicated orally as well as through song and religious chants, etc.

While I would hate to see all that go, I still would like to see greater emphasis placed on reading and various literacy campaigns launched. Oprah Winfrey's little reading club gig did wonders for getting people to read books (though of course the books were invariably of a certain genre and none of it was intellectually very challenging). Maybe we could have Jochy or some other TV emcee develop a reading segment on his show! I dont know, but we need to work for change.

This has been a particularly informative thread,and the discussion of compound tenses was very helpful. I will try to think of some other element of the Spanish language that causes new speakers problems and post on that.

[Quisqueya]

bonjour Lesley,

I love reading your thread because they are so refreshing "exhale" and informative..As a person who loves learning new languages I admire your expertise especially "en el castellano".

Yes I definitely see the difference and concur. I guess I should've made my example a little clearer. You're absolutely right regarding your examples and clarifying my examples as well.. Bueno, no tengo nada que añadir.. You are doing a tremendous job.

ONe thing, I've noticed that I sometimes get a mental freeze..I can start a conversation in english and forget the word I need to say in english and my brain searches for the word in french, kreyol, or spanish..what is that? Or I can speak the other three languages and completely forget a word in the language I'm speaking in...Do you have any idea what might have triggered this epidemic..I have virtually no accent in any of the above languages but at times I get a mental freeze..out of no where..bueno tengo que irme señorita. que estés bien..

the pleasure is mine mademoiselle...

[Quisqueya]

Macocael,

I agree with you whole heartedly..reading is the key. In my mind I don't know how someone can live without reading, its like standing in the middle of a cave without any sunlight rays guiding you out..

[Sholly24]

Originally Posted by Lesley D

...............Regarding 'have you eaten yet'. That's exactly my point. Spain favors the compound tenses and Latin America does not (en general). In Latin America 'has comido' would be 'comiste' for sure. I would never ask anyone 'has comido'. Honestly, it would sound strange to me.

As for 'me la pusieron difícil'. For sure that is correct for me but I just learned something new from you 'me lo pusieron difícil'. Again the usage of 'lo' instead of 'la' does not sound instinctive to me. In Spanish with lo/la sometimes you have to think what 'lo/la' represent(s). Me la pusieron difícil- what? la situación. Do you understand?

As for the Cuban expression, I will leave that for Juancarlos but I will say 'póngase para las cosas' is new for me but I think I know what it means.

Well, Sholly24 you certainly are a pleasant person. If you have any more questions just ask me.


Te deseo mucha suerte,

-LDG.

Lesley,
What I was told is that 'has comido' will be used for the most recent past, for example, if it happened in the same day but if it was referring to yesterday, then 'comiste' will be used and I think you mentioned that already above.

I am guessing that the use of 'la' or 'lo' in 'me la pusieron dificil' might depend on what the speaker is talking about. If the issue was about 'la situacíon' or 'la tarea' or something that is feminine, then 'la' should be appropriate but if it is about 'el trabajo' or 'el asunto' or something masculine, then I am guessing that 'lo' would be appropriate. Somehow the speaker did not make it obvious, but since he knows what he is talking about, the use of 'la' or 'lo' might be instinctive. I am only thinking it through but I might be wrong since at best I am still at an intermediate level.

The song 'Pongase para las cosas was sung by a cuban group called 'Estrellas Del Areito' and they sing the cuban traditional 'son' music. I am also guessing that the song title omitted some information which can be obtained by listening to the song and which should put more clarity on the meaning.

Thanks for the good word and all your help on this forum. You indeed are an excellent helper and resource on this board.

Muchisimas gracias de nueva

Sholly