Addressing people in a foreign language

[Lesley D]

Certain aspects about language are universal. I have always observed that people make errors when addressing people in a foreign language until they become very fluent in that language and even so it's possible to make an error without even realizing it. In Spanish this error happens with informal and formal address meaning tú vs. usted when addressing a person in normal everyday speech and with the command forms. As well the error happens when using forms of address such as Señor, Señora and Señorita.

On a recent plane trip I sat beside an older gentleman and I did not really take note of him. I got up for while and when I returned he was not there. When he came back he said to me "excuse me sir". Right away I thought to myself English is not his first language because he addressed me incorrectly. Now a unilingual female English speaker may have been offended by being called "sir". However because of my experience in language etc. I realized this is a language issue and that he did not even realize that what he said is incorrect.

As the journey progressed I came to realize the gentlemen was a Spanish-speaker. When the beverage service started and as I was being served the gentleman said "juguito" even before he was asked. Then I said to him: ¿habla español? and he said: Sí. Soy de Lima. Then they started to make announcements in English and French about delays and if anyone with a connecting flight had a chance to make their flight they would have to run like crazy to their connecting gate. Once the announcements were over he looked me and I knew that was my signal to explain to him in Spanish what was said so I did of course. After I explained to him the delay, the gate for Lima and that he has to run etc. He said to me: muchas gracias señorita. Gracias, gracias. It clarified my point about forms of address. In Spanish he did not err but when he did not know that I spoke Spanish he said "excuse me sir".

These are some of the subtle aspects of language that many people don’t realize happen and get offended. However, lack of practice is what perpetuates it or if people don't bring it to a person's attention. When speaking it's a little harder to address but when writing a good teacher, educator, parent whomever should point it out. For example, if you begin a letter with informal address (tú vs usted) the entire letter has to follow suit. One should not go back and forth with usage. If in one phrase in the letter venga is used and in the next phrase ven, or cuídate then cuídese in different sentences it's incorrect. It's either informal or formal address in the same letter throughout.

Just another interesting point about language.


-LDG.

[Theforceinme]

Interesting anecdote. Thanks for sharing it!

[Princesa777]

True, but what you are saying (writing a letter in one form) is even difficult for a lot of native speakers.

I think I speak English really well, but I still hestitate when I have to write formal letters. Im never sure how to adress people and how I should end, whereas I have no problem with this in my own language. This is also a matter of culture, not only language; when is it appropriate to use what form.

[Lesley D]

You are bringing up two issues in your post (one which I mentioned in my opening post):

1/ Using correct address throughout a letter has nothing to do with being a native speaker or bilingual or whatever the case may be. This is a matter of proper education. In a formal letter in which the ud. forms are used (formal address), it's incorrect to start off the letter this way and then start using informal verb forms (tú) in the middle of the letter. This can be a mistake on the part of person who wrote the letter but I rarely see this if a person has been educated well and knows how to write formal Spanish which means letters, essays, reports etc.

Please do not confuse this with people who don’t realize that their own colloquial speech plays a role in making mistakes. A person who drops the 's' in their speech and has limited education in Spanish is most always challenged to write properly. Even those who have education beyond high school and are in university still are challenged by their own way of speaking to write properly. I have said many times before in the forum that when colloquial speech interferes with formal writing there's a problem.

A person whose normal way of speaking is ¿Qué tú dice?, ¿Qué tú cree?, ¿Tú piensa que eso e' posible? will be challenged to write properly in Spanish in general never mind differentiating between tú and usted verb forms. It's a matter of critiquing one's own way of speaking and then looking at ways to improve formal vs. informal speech. This is where regional speech differences play a role in speaking and ultimately education in Spanish.

-if a person drops the 's' when speaking it still must be written. This is not an exception.

2/ I agree culture plays a role as well but IMO it's easier to make the distinction in Spanish and in the romance languages in general whereas in English You is You formal or informal.


-LDG.

Originally Posted by Princesa777

True, but what you are saying (writing a letter in one form) is even difficult for a lot of native speakers.

I think I speak English really well, but I still hestitate when I have to write formal letters. Im never sure how to adress people and how I should end, whereas I have no problem with this in my own language. This is also a matter of culture, not only language; when is it appropriate to use what form.

[Princesa777]

In the letter example I wasnt just speaking about the tu/usted problem, but also how to start letter, like when to use dear blah blah or something more formal and at the end...should you end with just a 'bye' or a 'yours sincerely' etc. In my own language I have no problem with finding the correct form, but in English...pfff

About not continuesly using the correct form of tu/usted in a letter I wasnt thinking of Dominicans, but of people native to my own language (not spanish, but they use tu/usted forms too) and I would say that most of the people living here got a good education (or at least have acces to good education ) and i've seen it many times that they start out a letter or a story one way and then they change in the middle of the letter/story, or even worse they use one line one form and the next line another .
In English you might not have that problem (haha, lucky) but in a lot of other languages you do and ALOT of (native) people make mistakes with this. Especially when they dont check the letter. But as you can imagine, if native people have issues with writing in the same form, it's even more difficult for somebody learning!

[Lesley D]

This is just a general comment to anyone reading this thread regarding my two posts about informal and formal speech in writing in Spanish specifically:

1/ There must be a distinction made between informal and formal address.

- formal letters have ud. forms and informal letters have tú forms and this must be maintained throughout the letter.

-if using the correct verb form presents difficulty the way to improve is via practice. Outside of the cultural nuances regarding when to use ud. or tú, one must know the difference for example between hablas/habla, caminas/camina, vas/va etc.

-a suggestion is to practice writing informal and formal letters in Spanish and give it to someone to correct. Of course a person who is in the capacity to do so and speaks well. The person correcting the letter should be able to identify crucial aspects of it that are important such as distinguishing between an informal and a formal letter, ensuring the verb forms are correct and consistent throughout, the correct tone etc. Practice will improve your writing skills and accepting the errors you make will enable you to be aware of your areas of improvement.

-after finishing the letter proofread it out loud. Highlight all the verbs and ensure that they are correct according to the type of letter it is- informal or formal.

-keep all the letters you write and look at the corrections before you write the next one and slowly and surely you will see improvement. Resisting to practice if this is your weakness in Spanish is equivalent to putting up your own barrier.

2/ Most dictionaries have sample letters in both Spanish and English. I suggest reading them as they provide a wide variety of scenarios and give you a great feel for the cultural nuances as well.

3/ Remember in Latin American the cultural norms do change and some countries are more formal than others. Colombia is a perfect example of ud. usage most of time vs. tuteo countries (informal address most of the time) like the DR and PR.


Here's a good link. Something to start with for Spanish:

Format and layout of a letter in Spanish.


-LDG.