Unnecessary use of the subjunctive

[Norma Rosa]

I do not wish to generalize by saying that this is happening in the entire region of el Cibao, but in Salcedo, the misuse of the subjunctive is widely spread. They are using the subjunctive where the indicative should go; this error occurs mainly with the third person plural (nosotros).

Ex.: Nosotros tengamos que ir a trabajar. (It should be tenemos.)

Nosotros volvamos pronto. (It should be volvemos, volveremos.)

I wonder what has given rise to this phenomenon.
Comments?

[Chip]

As we discussed I have noticed this as well and not exclusively with the third person plural. However, being that I am not a native speaker I understood it's use to be correct as it's use is widespread here.

Also, I don't remember hearing the usage as you posted above but more or less what I used in my conversation with you.

I think it would be helpful for all of us learning Spanish to post a few examples of when it should be used, like for example when following cuando, querer, decir.

[Lesley D]

This is a very unusual phenomenon indeed regarding usage of the subjunctive. Normally it's the other way around where the indicative is used instead of subjunctive and this happens on two levels. First by native speakers in very colloquial speech but in formal speech or writing the subjunctive is used as it should. Second of all, most foreigners don't master the subjunctive especially in complex sentence structures where the main clause is really separated from the subordinate clause. Foreigners who do use the subjunctive well usually have grammar mastery in all the languages they speak and have also studied the subjunctive in Spanish as a separate subject. This is possible- el subjuntivo en español. Since it's a very important part of Spanish grammar that's not going to disappear anytime soon, it's really important to understand it and use it well. IMO, no speaker can classify himself/ herself as fluent in Spanish without proper usage of the subjunctive.

I read those sample sentences a few times and I tried to test myself to see if I would say those phrases with the subjunctive and I couldn't continue. It's awkward and just makes no sense. There is regional usage of the subjunctive in the Spanish-speaking world without a doubt especially with the imperfect subjunctive. I remember once two co-workers of mine got into a bit of an argument. One was Venezuelan the other Colombian. One said something along the lines of 'pudiera ser posible' (Venezuelan) and the Colombian co-worker corrected him and said 'no debe ser podría ser posible'. They went back and forth for a while and finally they both said 'preguntemos a Lesley, a ver lo que dice'. I recognized immediately that it was a regional speech variation of usage of the subjunctive for the conditional. I would say podría to show probability and not pudiera but I understood why it caused a debate. In some zones in Latin America you will hear these variations. That's why grammarians, linguists, socio-linguists and other language professionals divide the Spanish-speaking regions to analyze and identify certain grammatical patterns and forms. Spanish from the North Andean region, Spanish from the coast of Colombia, Venezuela and Panama. As well, the old name Alta Perú which is modern day Bolivia with Baja Perú which is modern day Peru have identical speech patterns. Same with Río de la Plata region especially Argentina and Uruguay. One has to listen and observe because there are differences and foreigners should not pick up these incorrect regionalisms by imitation. It's not recommended. What's recommended is to know your grammar to decipher correct speech from incorrect speech.

BTW- nosotros is the first person plural and not the third person which is ustedes. Not sure if it was a typo on your part.


-L.

[newuser]

[quote=They went back and forth for a while and finally they both said 'preguntemos a Lesley, a ver lo que dice'.[/QUOTE]

Lesley, can you explain why preguntemos is used here instead of preguntamos?

Thanks

[Lesley D]

One co-worker is saying to the other- Let's ask Lesley.

The command form (nosotros) is preguntemos.

This is another rare aspect of Spanish as compared to the other sister romance languages, the subjunctive is used to form some of the commands.


-L.

[xEnchantdFaeriex]

I started learning spanish when i was 16... and subsequently lived and went to spanish schools in santiago for 5 years... but my problems were with when/how to use the subjuntivo ... i kinda know it now... but originally i had said i would never understand it.... also the command form... i get that... except when i read the "preguntamos a Lesley" you can understand it as a kinda question right? if it were said with that tone, it would be correct, right Lesley?

[montreal]

Originally Posted by Chip

I think it would be helpful for all of us learning Spanish to post a few examples of when it should be used, like for example when following cuando, querer, decir.

Right Chip, verbs of emotion and words like cuando, si, quizas and tal vez might require the use of the subjuntive form. Although only when referring to certain times (past or future). For example, when using cuando AND refering to the future (presente de subjuntivo) or the past (imperfecto de subjuntivo). Quizas and tal vez also require the usage of subjunctive but only if they come before the verb. That is just a few examples, you could write a book on the usage of subjunctive (There are probably many actually!)

Another important usage of subjuntivo are exclamations (Ojala!) or (Que lo pases bien!) and repetitive expressions (Pase lo que pase)

Perhaps Lesley could expand on the subject, she is the resident expert

[Norma Rosa]

Originally Posted by Lesley D

BTW- nosotros is the first person plural and not the third person which is ustedes. Not sure if it was a typo on your part.


-L.

Yes, indeed. Thanks.

[Norma Rosa]

Originally Posted by Chip

Also, I don't remember hearing the usage as you posted above but more or less what I used in my conversation with you.

[/i].

I heard it a lot in el campo and it was not music to my ears. I even made the mistake of correcting a person. What is mind buggling is that it seems to be a new trend, a thing that could well be an overcorrection.

[Norma Rosa]

Originally Posted by Lesley D

IMO, no speaker can classify himself/ herself as fluent in Spanish without proper usage of the subjunctive.-L.

Lesley, I don't think one can safely utter such a statement, for if it is true, then many individuals from Spanish-speaking regions don't speak their mother tongue with fluency.

Norma