U.S. travel group eyes forbidden Cuba

[bob saunders]

My little brother just came back from 3 weeks in Cuba. He was there building houses/churches( church group) in a small village called Hamel on the end closest to Haiti. He has been to the DR along with most other Latin American countries. This was his second trip and because he had to deal with Goverment Officials( communnist party) he was certainly aware of the retrictions put on the average person. Imagine going to a city of 500,000 and being only able to find red or blur paint. Almost all import produces were from Mexico. He found that most people are not members of the 'Party''. Even in the country he found it much cleaner that the DR and people more educated. When he was in Havana he found things much more restrictive but in the country he could go most places without a " sponsor". He thinks that there are great tourist and other posibilities after Communism goes, as it sure will. Look at North Korea, 2 million in their army and the country is starving to dealth. Capitalism has it's fault but it sure beats what comes in second place. Yes, if Catro goes and Cuba becomes an open society, I think the DR better get its act together.
Perhaps the goverment should open tourism and hospitality schools, run initially by resort professionals, like they do here in British Columbia. My own personal beef is the garbage everywhere. Now that my wife has lived in Canada for two years , when she goes home to the DR, it really gets to her also.

[Tgf]

According to the various historical documents approximately 10 to 12 million Africans were transported to the New World to serve as slaves during the 4 centuries that the slave trade existed. A rough breakdown of destinations is the following: 50% various Spanish, French, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, and British colonies in the Caribbean, 33% to Portugese Brazil, 6% to the American colonies and later the United States, and 11% to other locations such as Peru, Mexico, Argentina, etc. Very few of the these populations could reproduce enough offspring to maintain slave population numbers (i.e., the death rate was higher than births). The average life of a field slave during the peak of production and profitability in Saint Domingue (colonial Haiti) was three years. The American colonies and then the United States was one of the few New World destinations where slave populations actually increased by reproduction (even though it was augmented by regular transportation as well). This was not because of benign slave owners, but because of the healthier non-tropical climate, and the fact that sugar plantations were very limited in the United States, and the cost of slaves was higher in this area due to greater distances. Slaves, as property, were expensive and the slave owner wanted to protect his investment. If you want to read an excellent account of slavery and its impact on the history of the Caribbean I recommend Eric William's "From Columbus to Castro. " Still one of the best histories of the Caribbean, even if a little dated. Eric Williams, was an Afro-Caribbean man, an historian of note, and the former Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago.

P.S. For a long time people in the U.S. were worried that the Japanese and Saudis were going to buy up much of the land in Hawaii and California, and much of the real estate market in cities like New York. The nature of the beast in a capitalist world.

[Escott]

Originally posted by MommC
I've talked with many Italians and Canadians who have been to Cuba OUTSIDE of the resorts- mingling with the inhabitants.
They were all impressed with the scenery,beaches, the cleanliness, good lodgings, great food, intelligent (mostly university educated) people including those "damas di dia - *****di noche" (you know what I mean)and low cost of their stays.

Now why would anyone want to come to this country where it's dirty, no sanitation,no drinking water,eroded beaches, and expensive when they can visit a real paradise unspoiled by all the over development that is seen here?

Question, you are Canadian and free to travel to Cuba. Why aren't you there in the winters instead of the DR?

I happen to think that the DR is about the least expensive place to visit by far in the carribean. Beaches are beautiful on the NE coast and never had a problem with sanitation and drinking water because I know not to drink it. I also think that the NE Coast is completely underdeveloped. I can buy beach front in Cabarete for next to nothing. Try doing that where it is developed or over developed.

Just my thoughts.

Regards

My thoughts about this conversation is that the DR is much different than Cuba. When Cuba closed I think those that went there or the type that went there from the US are now going to the Bahama's, the Caymans and other higher end Carribean destinations.

I also wonder of the 29% of tourists that supposedly go the the DR how many of them are Dominicans living in the US as citizens? How many of these Dominicans would stop coming to the DR? Not many in my opinion.

Tony... I am not a snob. I like Dominicans. I also like Cubans. I have relatives that fled Cuba. I still would like to see the Island just for kicks and giggles.

[MommC]

For the same reason I don't visit Russia,Poland, China,or any other communist country.......
Why the DR? It was recommeded by my doctor. I was given a choice of Arizona,South Africa or here.......The DR is the closest flying/travelling time from where I live as I suffer incredibly on long trips!(which explains why we haven't been to Italy & Europe in 11 yrs when we used to go every two on average)

[Hlywud]

Originally posted by MommC
I've talked with many Italians and Canadians who have been to Cuba OUTSIDE of the resorts- mingling with the inhabitants.
They were all impressed with the scenery,beaches, the cleanliness, good lodgings, great food, intelligent (mostly university educated) people including those "damas di dia - *****di noche" (you know what I mean)and low cost of their stays.

Now why would anyone want to come to this country where it's dirty, no sanitation,no drinking water,eroded beaches, and expensive when they can visit a real paradise unspoiled by all the over development that is seen here?

I have to agree with Momm C, as much as I love the DR I have been to Cuba 6 times no less and found it wonderful, and those who said locals cannot visit resorts are wrong, I have had people come to visit and all they need do is ask at the entrance and we are called, they even are allowed to partake in a few cool ones on our AI.
Now another point since the magna companies from the US have been gone since the late 50's, when they see the opportunity to expand and build in the magnificent locations that are available and make mega bucks, they will be there at the drop of a hat, and the dough will not stop rolling in.
The DR government better look out and clean up their act, it will happens, ole Helms and Burton will not be around forever.

Just my opinion, but I ben der and dun that.

[Escott]

Originally posted by MommC
For the same reason I don't visit Russia,Poland, China,or any other communist country.......
Why the DR? It was recommeded by my doctor. I was given a choice of Arizona,South Africa or here.......The DR is the closest flying/travelling time from where I live as I suffer incredibly on long trips!(which explains why we haven't been to Italy & Europe in 11 yrs when we used to go every two on average)

Let me get this right, you don't do long plane rides. You don't do Communist Countries or countries that previously were communist but are now a Democracy such as Poland.

Since the climate in the DR has to be simular to Cuba as soon as Castro craps out are you saying that is where you would go instead of the DR but you wouldn't because it once would have been communist?

You say that the DR is expensive, others say it is cheap. Interesting thoughts here. Not even getting into your politics about the US

[MommC]

I may go to Cuba on a dive trip with hubby this year (from the DR in Nov.)...........but I won't really be in Cuba 'cause we'll go straight from the airport to a liveaboard and out to sea.
As for going there for winters - re-read my previous post. Cuba is NOT on the list.
And yes Poland is now a democracy but it is still not a place I'd be willing to visit in the near future (I have Polish friends from there who still advise against it. They were home last year.....there is still lots of oppression there.)
As for long plane rides in the fall my kids want us to take them on a tour of Italy and Switzerland. My husbands brother in Rome wants him to go to Morocco for 10 days and hubby and I are meeting friends in Egypt to dive the Red Sea. So I will suffer silently (I hope), bring lots of Toradol if I can't bring morphine or Demerol and enjoy the trip as much as possible! After all one of my heraldic family motos is "Nil Desperandum"!

P.S. Must you take exception to everything I say? I'm beginning to think I've given you a complex!

[AnnaC]

Mommc you don't have an email on your posts. I was going to write you and ask what is it you suffer from. You can email me if you don't want to disguse it here. I have arthritis but I had no pain the whole month I was there and it rained almost every day.

[CES]

~ ~ ~ In the past many threads here and on the board have covered US tourists and Cuba as their destination. Some of the points made were: Cuba is only 90 miles from the US, making for easy access. The future development of Havana depends on the legal issues of just who owns what, the titles of all the property that Castor seized will have to be sorted out in the courts (possible even here in the US) and this will take years, possibly. Cuba is many times larger than the DR so there is more 'room' for development. Because Cuba is under developed now it will take several years to put in place the infrastructure to support the type of tourist destination that will appeal to US tourists in any great numbers. When the government of the new Cuba is up and running and starts handing out gaming licenses world class gambling interests will pounce on Cuba with a vengeance. IF the Cuban government is half way honest and addresses it's responsibilities in an even handed manner then a 'gaming industry' will/ could be very lucrative, possibility. Cuba, on the surface, seems to have figured out that garbage and international tourism aren't compatible. Cuba doesn't have the same crime problems that seem to be emerging in the DR, no "Nuevo Yorks" and all their little home grown 'look a'likes'.

I know that there were other points made but I think the potential "sex appeal" (see my post below) of old Havana is something that Santo Domingo will never have. If the Cubans do a proper
restoration of their "Zona Colonial" it could be awesome, a big draw for tourists and world travelers alike. Also Cuba has an internationally recognized and sponsored "World Heritage Area" (not sure if that's the correct name) that's priceless as a destination for "world class travelers".

This is just my personal observation and in part it's based on something that was said here some time ago. A Dominican aspires to own a colmado, the Cuban on the other hand will end up with a supermarket chain given the opportunity.

Since Andy B made mention of the 500# Gorilla/ Cuba thing I thought this might be helpful in the development of this thread. Dolores (DR1) offered this interesting take on the forthcoming return of Cuba to the real world:

DR1 Forums > Business > economic comments from the daily news[*]

Central Bank statistics show that of the total arrivals in 2001 (2,294,121) 666,290 were United
States citizens. This is 29% of the total foreign arrivals. Of that percentage, one could say about 4% are of Dominican origin, either citizens or offspring of Dominicans, so they will continue to visit the DR. Thus it would be safe to estimate that the DR is receiving about 25% of its leisure and business travelers from the US. As Punta Cana and La Romana destinations become more popular, the percentage of visiting US travelers will increase. One of the negatives that most affects the number of US travelers to the DR is the lack of reasonably priced air fares. At present, for the most part only charter airlines are offering attractive fares. Thus the country has not yet begun to tap into the market that would open up if it had adequate air service. If Cuba opens up, yes, thousands of US travelers will visit that island. Cuba was a popular destination years back and should again attract thousands of US travelers. Expect lots of hotel investment to flow as that country prepares for the US traveler seeking a Caribbean vacation, rather than a glimpse at something prohibitive. But years of the Castro regime have affected the hospitality service in Cuba. Dominicans are more natural at being hosts. Dominicans are spontaneous in their service providing. This friendliness of Dominicans will continue to be a major plus to this country. Another major plus on the side of the DR is that winters are chilly in Cuba. Weather in winter in the DR is perfect. On the other hand, the DR could gain if Cuba becomes popular. It will make the Spanish Caribbean more popular. Furthermore, island-hopping vacations could catch on. Multi-destination visits in Europe have always been popular, they could also be an attractive alternative in the Caribbean.

To read statistics on where visitors to the DR come from, see

http://www.bancentral.gov.do/lleg_men_nac.html
[*] --->

http://dr1.com/forums/showthread.php...highlight=cuba

==================================================

~ ~ ~ One of my replies in this thread:

DR1 Forums > Open > I've just now seen the 500# Gorilla!![*]

Re: It would take many years

Good points Matt. There will a plethora of court battles to settle the ownership all the properties
Fidel confiscated. Once those issues are settled then it's 'Look out World, Here we Come'.
Numerous outside interests and all the Cuban Nationals here (USA) with 'BIG MONEY' will
descend on Cuba to participate in the frenzy to develop the country.

I've heard that international gaming interests are willing to spend mega $$$ money in Havana, the
reason being (as I see it) the cost of doing business, the ol' bottom line thing. It's going to be a lot cheaper to do business in Cuba than Atlantic City and it only takes one Donald Trump to set the thing in motion.

I do think that some day we will have to be very concerned with the development of BIG $$$ DOLLAR tourism development in the former 'commie' Cuba and as I've tried to point out in the thread opener the name recognition that "Old Havana" has is, (to barrow from the credit card commercial) in a word. . . "Priceless". . .

Try this little test --->

Say the following out load:

"Havana, Cuba - . . . Hemingway"

"Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic - . . . Hipólito"

On the average if you were to stop ten people in the street and recite the above, how many of the
ten would recognize the latter and it's context? ? ?

http://www.timelesshemingway.com/

http://www.timelesshemingway.com/hemrugged.jpg
[*] --->
http://dr1.com/forums/showthread.php...hlight=gorilla

==================================================

This thread also addresses US tourists in Cuba --->

DR1 Forums > Open > Percentage of tourists

http://dr1.com/forums/showthread.php...a&pagenumber=1

==================================================

regards,

. . . CES"

[MommC]

I have cervical spondylosis with kyphosis and DDD. I have lived in pain 24/7 for the past 11 yrs. Nothing they can do for me (altho' there was a trial a few months ago on an artificial disk that I'm following ) Surgery at this point is NOT an option. There is a greater than 50% chance of death or ending up like Cristopher Reeves. My specialist said they will wait until I am completely paralyzed and then there would be a 50% chance of "aiding" me.
Medications other than opiate types have no effect on the pain. I am fortunate in that I have a high tolerance level and I have learned what NOT to do to aggrevate the condition -meaning to not provoke the pain which is always present -(CS & DDD are degenerative and only gets worse each year).
It is much better down here altho' this year has been a little rough with the high humidity and windy weather.
I practise biofeedback, yoga, and belly dance to lesson the effects of the disease. Meditation helps also. When it gets real bad the family knows not to "bug" me that I have all I can do to cope and not scream at everyone in sight.

To Escott......Where have you travelled to besides in the US and the DR?
As for my "politics" re: the US, remember I have a son living there, married to an American , my aunts and cousins on my fathers' side are all Americans and half my husbands family are Americans!