Pedernales

[Mirador]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Huh! I was hoping this wasn't the case and that the word had an alternative meaning in Spanish.

Chirimoya, you knew very well what the word meant, you just wanted to rub it in ;-), and like you said in a previous post, the inhabitants of La Cueva de Cabo Rojo are a "squalid and depressing human element" (Ugly indeed! like a primates!) Chiri, you might as well spell it out: It is best just to show the breathtaking scenery, the Dominican Republic is soo beautiful, it's just the people who are so "squalid and depressing"!

[NALs]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

Huh! I was hoping this wasn't the case and that the word had an alternative meaning in Spanish.

Mirador's comment could very well be true, but a word for word translation would be more on the lines of the following:

"El pasado lunes DL publicó una historia donde refleja la situación de estos dominicanos que viven igual que los primates alejados de todos los servicios sociales."

(English) "Last monday the DL published a story which reflects on the situation of these Dominicans who live like primates with no access to social services."

In such sentence, one could easily take the assumption that the originator of the comment meant the word primate to be used to denote those people as such, or simply to compare their day to day living experience as something similar to what primates live.

Is the writer calling a group of people primate or simply referring to their squalid living conditions as not much different from animals?

Is that a deragatory comparison or a criticism of government negligence in that part of the country, to the point that people are living like "primates"?

Is living like primates the samething as being a primate?

Personally, my answers to those questions would be as follows:

I think the writer was simply referring to their squalid living conditions as being not much different from primates, not necessarily calling the people such.

I think it was not a deragatory comparison, but rather the writer trying to convey in the mind of the reader the squalid and perhaps inhumaine living conditions of those people who "have been forgotten by their own government".

And finally, living like primates is not the same as saying such people are primates. To say a group of people live like primates can be insulting if the writer gives hints that he believes that the people are responsible for their own squalid existence, but if he believes that its the government's fault or lack of non-local attention to such squalid conditions; then obviously to refer to their existence as something akin to the existence of primates is to show the inhumaine nature of their existence and how nobody seems to care.

-NALs

[Chirimoya]

Originally Posted by Mirador

Chirimoya, you knew very well what the word meant, you just wanted to rub it in ;-)

If that had been the case I would have translated it as "living like apes" which I didn't.

...and like you said in a previous post, the inhabitants of La Cueva de Cabo Rojo are a "squalid and depressing human element" (Ugly indeed! like a primates!)

My actual quote was "the human element was squalid and depressing" and it was a statement of fact, not meant as a value judgement. I never typed the word "ugly" either.

What was a value judgement was that I said that they did not appear to be doing much to help themselves. I make these observations as someone who works in development and can usually assess these things quite accurately. You can tell the difference when a community is resourceful and organised. This one did not give that impression. The fact is, the place is dirty, and the people there will need external advice and investment to get a piece of the tourist action. I hope this project is successful, not just for the sake of the National Parks and eco-tourists but for the people who live there.

Chiri, you might as well spell it out: It is best just to show the breathtaking scenery, the Dominican Republic is soo beautiful, it's just the people who are so "squalid and depressing"!

I took photos of the scenery because sometimes one feels intrusive when taking pictures of squalor.

Mirador, my address to you was meant as an invitation to enter into discussion about semantics, not an opening for you to make mountains out of molehills for your personal amusement. I'll know better in future.

[Chirimoya]

Originally Posted by NALs

Mirador's comment could very well be true, but a word for word translation would be more on the lines of the following:

"El pasado lunes DL publicó una historia donde refleja la situación de estos dominicanos que viven igual que los primates alejados de todos los servicios sociales."

(English) "Last monday the DL published a story which reflects on the situation of these Dominicans who live like primates with no access to social services."

In such sentence, one could easily take the assumption that the originator of the comment meant the word primate to be used to denote those people as such, or simply to compare their day to day living experience as something similar to what primates live.

Is the writer calling a group of people primate or simply referring to their squalid living conditions as not much different from animals?

Is that a deragatory comparison or a criticism of government negligence in that part of the country, to the point that people are living like "primates"?

Is living like primates the samething as being a primate?

Personally, my answers to those questions would be as follows:

I think the writer was simply referring to their squalid living conditions as being not much different from primates, not necessarily calling the people such.

I think it was not a deragatory comparison, but rather the writer trying to convey in the mind of the reader the squalid and perhaps inhumaine living conditions of those people who "have been forgotten by their own government".

And finally, living like primates is not the same as saying such people are primates. To say a group of people live like primates can be insulting if the writer gives hints that he believes that the people are responsible for their own squalid existence, but if he believes that its the government's fault or lack of non-local attention to such squalid conditions; then obviously to refer to their existence as something akin to the existence of primates is to show the inhumaine nature of their existence and how nobody seems to care.

-NALs

Thanks NALs, that's more like it! I can now read that line of the article in a different way, and accept that to say that people are "living like animals" is not the same as saying they are animals, or even that they themselves resemble them.

I wondered about changing it to "living like apes" in my translated version, but I still think it is open to misinterpretation and could be taken as offensive (as I did with the original).

BTW "No access to" is better than my clumsy "remote".

[Mirador]

Originally Posted by Chirimoya

...I took photos of the scenery because sometimes one feels intrusive when taking pictures of squalor.

..and you are worried about your feelings of intrusiveness?, actually, that's what people like those in La Cueva need: intrusion!, and lots of it. People like those in La Cueva bask in the attention given when their pictures are taken. What did you give them? I introduced them to pineapples ;-), and much more... I'm sure the inhabitants of thirty years ago, moved on, and new ones arrived...

[Chirimoya]

Originally Posted by Mirador

..and you are worried about your feelings of intrusiveness?, actually, that's what people like those in La Cueva need: intrusion!, and lots of it. People like those in La Cueva bask in the attention given when their pictures are taken. What did you give them? I introduced them to pineapples ;-), and much more... I'm sure the inhabitants of thirty years ago, moved on, and new ones arrived...

Fair enough. We didn't "give" anything in the direct sense, although arguably by sharing this information about the place here and in other media we may send a few of those tourists their way.

I was not "worried" about anything, but trying to be respectful. Had we entered into some sort of commercial or social interaction, that would have provided the cue for banter and photo-taking. As we were just passing through on our way into Bahía de las Aguilas (by road) I chose not to behave like a voyeur, taking and not giving in return.

[abduke23]

Originally Posted by Katrien

Dear Chirimoya,

Thanks for sharing your beautyfull pictures!

Would you happen to know if we can get all the way to the beach of the Bahia with a SUV? Checking google earth, it seems that at a certain rocky point the track has been blocked by something big and red? If so, we shouldn't bother trying to drive all that distance for nothing but just take the boat...

Greetz,

Katrien

I was at Bahia de las Aguilas this past weekend and it is beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!! Regarding your question, if your SUV has 4x4 you can go but if not I'd recommend the boat. I went with friends and they decided that the boat was too expensive and he ended up cracking his muffler in 2 parts He has a 2000 ford explorer. We saw several pick ups and high end SUV's(range rover, toyota prado, etc.) easily go up the hill but we didn't fare as well. I had to place rocks under the tires so he could make it all the way up!!LOL, good luck and enjoy the view!! (if you haven't gone already)

Oh, BTW, if you stay in pedernales try the hotel Villa las Marias (I think thats what it's called. I'll try to get their number and post it) It's very clean and fairly priced (1000 pesos per weekend night, they have a special Monday through Thursday: 650 per night and it includes a traditional Dominican breakfast: Mangu, Salami, Eggs, Cheese, Juice, Coffee) For dinner you've got to go to Jalicar (I think it's spelled like that) 400 pesos for a generous serving of Lobster "al ajillo"(garlic) with tostones, my wife had a 4lb+ chillo(don't know what it's called in English) for 500 pesos (tax included).