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  #221  
Old 12-17-2007, 09:10 AM
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Matilda Level 3 Matilda Level 3 Matilda Level 3 (213)
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And it's not just in the DR it happens BBC NEWS | UK | 'Urgent action' needed on floods
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  #222  
Old 12-17-2007, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly View Post
As some of you know i am a very good friend of Mr. Tejada, and I truly respect his opinions. In more than one occasion his editorial has been truly courageous. I cannot imagine the frustration, the feeling of impotence, the rage that "thinking people" of this nation are feeling as more and more truths are unveiled.

As anecdotal evidence, a good friend from the lower part of town reported this to me as we drove to Santo Domingo on Saturday.
"All the families that were evacuated left one member in the house to "watch over their things", you know, those things that they could not carry away: The television, the washing machine, the beds..." "All those people left behind were drowned."

This is a scary report if it is even 50% true.

Lambada, your scouring of the media is great!!

HB
It is pretty ominous to see the descruction of the homes on the big turn in the Yaque right before it gets to the bridge and then to see the high water marks left by debris as one drives down the Circunavalacion. It appears the whole area was under a lot of water.

Thanks too Lambada for providing such relevant information.
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  #223  
Old 12-17-2007, 10:15 AM
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John D Pagan Level 1 (10)
Default Now what do we show love and help???

We have a base set up to help in Santiago and one in Barahona, I pray more help is sent then was for Noel down south west DR for the ones living buy the sugar cane fields. Help first than teach them how to rebuild in a safe zone, or it will happen again.
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  #224  
Old 12-17-2007, 11:26 AM
Dag Dag is offline
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Coupla tidbits:

re: dredging/maintenance of the presas

The Presa de Tavera has never been dredged to the best of my knowledge. That 1979 date I believe is when the dam was completed, just in time for Hurricane David. Loss of reservoir capacity due to sedimentation is a serious issue here though for some reason they don't include sediment traps in the design. A fine example can be had by visiting the Presa de Blanco west of Bonao. Completed in the mid 90s, it was turned into a gravel pit by Hurricane Georges a few years later with perhaps 20% (swag) of its design capacity.

The maintenance issue for the major presas here is one that truly scares me. Assuming that the quality of construction has been equal to that found in the United States, on average an impoundment structure (dam and related parts) will require a major maintenance/reconstruction every 30-50 years. The cost to undertake reconstuction is commonly many times the initial cost of construction. Some Dominican examples courtesy of INDRHI cost vs. rebuild cost:

Presa de Maguaca - RD$ 1.9 million vs. RD$ 129.9 million (2002)
Presa de Chacuey - RD$ 1.9 million vs. RD$ 42.0 million (1993)

These two presas are little ones. The cost to rebuild a major structure like that for the Presa de Tavera will be significant. In the US it is becoming common to write the anticipated expenses of reconstruction into the operating costs of the facility, one reason why an increasing number of smaller scale hydroelectric facilities are being removed as unprofitable. This is not the case in the RD. Surely they wouldn't neglect necessary maintenance for lack of funds? Personally I wouldn't build anything of value in the floodplain downstream of any of the major dams here.

re: logging data at the Presa de Tavera

It is common practice to maintain a facility status log at hydroelectric facilities which should include water data such as impoundment elevation and water flows to the turbines to generate power as well as any excess water being discharged. I know that the emergency operations plan for the Presa de Tavera calls for impoundment elevation to be measured every ten minutes, presumably more often than whatever time period would or sould be a norm. I can't speak for what actually was done and in any case would be highly suspicious of any data that was released to the public.

re: drawdown of water levels during hurricane season

Schedule of mandated water levels for the Presa de Tavera has it being drawn down to 320 msnm during hurricane season, defined as between June 15th and Oct 15th. The presa may be maintained full at 327.5 msnm from Nov 30th to June 1st with the remaining dates being used to slowly raise or lower the level. I would not be surprised in the least were it that these levels were disregarded. The arrival of Olga outside the season when the presa was (theoretically at least) drawn down in anticipation of high water events did make for a more challenging than normal operational situation but one would reasonably expect that those entrusted with the task would be capable. I've not seen news that the dam operators in Puerto Rico, which was run over by the same storm, had to resort to such drastic measures to maintain the integrity of their structures.

re: water discharge prior to TS Olga

In the coverage of this issue on the Saturday evening television program of journalist Huchi Lora, he stated that the initial discharge from the Presa de Tavera to prepare for the incoming storm was 100 m3/sec. He didn't attribute this number but Sr. Lora is one of the few public figures in the RD that I trust to at least try to be accurate. Considering that incoming flows from the Yaque del Norte and Bao watersheds were at an elevated flow prior to the arrival of Olga , this represents a nominal drawdown at best if not simply an attempt to maintain levels at or near full.

re: since I'm already annoyed....

Two new hydroelectric projects getting underway, Palomino and Las Placetas. Both are being built in supposedly biologically protected areas (national park) without a peep. Both are being built with borrowed money. Both were justified by questionable data. Why the heck are they starting two new projects when the Presa de Gualgui stands near abandoned, half completed? Whatever happend to all the money that was invested in starting the Presa de Hondo Valle project, which has since disappeared from the planning boards? The work on the Presa de Gualgui and the Presa de Hondo Valle were done on borrowed funds as well, for which the country is now paying interest.

"Hey. All we have to do is say 'free electricity' and we can do whatever we damn well please."

Sorry...my bias showing there .
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  #225  
Old 12-17-2007, 05:28 PM
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Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 (409)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly View Post
As some of you know i am a very good friend of Mr. Tejada, and I truly respect his opinions. In more than one occasion his editorial has been truly courageous. I cannot imagine the frustration, the feeling of impotence, the rage that "thinking people" of this nation are feeling as more and more truths are unveiled. HB
I think the least we can do is keep a running tally of the hard questions & the nuggets of information - it feels like a demonstration of solidarity both with the 'thinking people' and with the bereaved, homeless, farmless, livestockless etc. And interestingly I do think everyone is reading everyone else's material. Remember when I mentioned Luis Arthur here last Thursday?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambada View Post
HB, you're a student of history - look at what Luis Arthur wrote in 2004 referring back to David in 1979 in La Presa De Tavera – Benedicion y Amenaza para Santiago
LA PRESA DE TAVERAS – ESPADA DE DAMOCLES SOBRE SANTIAGO
Yesterday El Caribe ran the original Luis Arthur article, nothing to do with this thread I'm sure, but it does mean we're all on the same page:
http://www.elcaribecdn.com/articulo_...470A&Seccion=3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
Coupla tidbits:
Dag, you underestimate your technical understanding. Thank you so much for the technical explanations.

Some stuff from today: first the NASA weather reports as reported in Listin vs. DR's Met. office. NASA has explained how those differences could have occurred:
La República - La NASA explica diferencias entre sus datos y MeteorologÃ*a
Probably easiest for people here to go to María Soldevila's blog, she's the Editor of Listin, where all the correspondance with NASA appears in English.
con mis ojos

Secondly, & totally unsurprisingly, the Government's opponents are using the party political angles on all of this. A pity because this was/is a preventable tragedy which rises far above the mire of party politics. I did see Aristy Castro has offered his lawyers for the plaint of the bereaved and his helicopter was involved in the rescue (I'm being fair here, normally I criticise his campaigning antics).
sacandomelao: ¿Para que otra cosa sirve el Amable-Cóptero?

Finally, now that a plaint has been mentioned (i.e. accountability) do you see how fast the INDRHI director is backtracking (as in 'it wasn't me, it was the committee'). 'Dijo que sólo recibe los informes del Comité de operación de las Presas en Emergencia que está integrado por representantes de la CDEEE, el INDRHI, Defensa Civil, Dirección de Meteorología, Comité de Operación de Emergencia, las instituciones que manejan los acueductos, entre otras instituciones. "Ese comité de técnicos actúa de manera independiente y en ningún caso el INDRHI como institución ni su director influyen en sus decisiones".'
El Nacional, la voz de todos
I gather Pimentel got given a bit of a hard time at Friday's campaign meeting in Puerto Plata
Puerto Plata Digital
and he is certainly getting a hard time in El Faro, the PP paper with an opinion piece about using the weather emergencies to elevate political approval ratings but...........you have to bear in mind the political leanings of this paper and the author.
El \"buen\" uso de OLGA
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  #226  
Old 12-17-2007, 06:56 PM
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A.Hidalgo Level 2 A.Hidalgo Level 2 (136)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambada View Post

Another interesting article is about statistics concerning fatalities:
Cantidad de muertos que da oficialidad por riada Yaque del Norte podrÃ*a no ser la real
Interview therein with a Haitian survivor who said that the worst affected areas of Santiago had many lodging houses where Haitian construction workers lived (& died) and that these do not appear to be featuring in the official statistics.
Following article is from 2 days before the El Nuevo Diario article basically says the same thing, indicating that Haitians are not being identified. Shameful.

Quote:
Al parecer las autoridades de salud "habrían determinado la identidad de estos cinco supuestos haitianos por el color de la piel".
Translation:
It seems that the Health authorities determined the identity of the supposed five Haitians by their skin color.

Click on inmigrantes (towards bottom)
"5 de los 20 muertos en Santiago son de nacionalidad haitiana"
[ESPACINSULAR - República Dominicana-Haití]
my bolding

Last edited by A.Hidalgo; 12-17-2007 at 06:59 PM. Reason: add words
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  #227  
Old 12-17-2007, 07:57 PM
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Chris Level 3 Chris Level 3 (163)
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Thanks everyone for the continued reporting.
Dag, you make the dam(n) stuff understandable for me.

What does one say about something like this - the complete and utter disregard for human life.
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  #228  
Old 12-18-2007, 02:25 AM
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Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 (409)
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The commission to investigate the tragedy will be headed by Sec. of Armed Forces & have COE director, INAPA & CORASAAN directors, ONAMET director, Provincial Development Director, a rep. from CODIA & engineering depts of UASD & PUCMM. Will consult with others & report in 90 days i.e. approx 18th. March 2008.
http://www.elcaribecdn.com/articulo_...1CD&Seccion=63
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  #229  
Old 12-18-2007, 09:12 AM
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Hillbilly Level 4 Hillbilly Level 4 Hillbilly Level 4 (268)
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A wonderful satirist, Milton Peláez, killed last year over some debts, once wrote a funny little merengue: "Comisiones, comisiones, comisiones,¿para qué?"

The way to get pressure off of your incompetent government is to name a commission to study the matter. As dag has so eloquently put it for all to see, this is pure stupidity, ignorance, arrogance on the part of the government.

Does anyone really think that this commission will be able to name names? Establish just who was responsible? With those government officials>?? Who is going to fund this commission? It costs money to get together, to gather the paperwork, to do the penny-ante stuff required to get to the bottom of this. Pure smoke and mirrors...

HB
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  #230  
Old 12-19-2007, 12:49 PM
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Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 Lambada Level 5 (409)
Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly View Post
Does anyone really think that this commission will be able to name names? Establish just who was responsible? With those government officials>?? HB
And even the people who might be considered more impartial have started 'signalling'. Yesterday for example, 8 ex-presidents of CODIA defended what was done
http://www.elcaribecdn.com/articulo_...CEA&Seccion=63
Counteracting that Silvio Carrasco was interviewed on El Dia today
http://www.elcaribecdn.com/articulo_...790&Seccion=63

Some interesting technical stuff here about the operations manual - I'd be interested in dag's opinion on this.
Noticias - El instructivo de Tavera indica*un desagüe de hasta 500 m3/s

Meanwhile on another front is the Listin Diario - NASA - ONAMET debate about rainfall amounts.
La República - NASA publicó ayer que Olga dejó 100 milÃ*metros de lluvias

Gobierno afirma cientÃ*fico NASA desmiente información

The debate is over what NASA did or did not say & how it was interpreted by Listin Diario. ONAMET is accusing Listin of misusing NASA's information for political capital, an accusation denied by Maria Soldevilla, Editor of Listin, who has publshed the ongoing exchange of emails between herself & NASA in English on her blog (these are new mails & are in addition to the ones I posted earlier in this thread). Also included are the mails between ONAMET & NASA in English.
con mis ojos: Más intercambios entre Nasa, Onamet y LISTÃN DIARIO

NASA are also covering the rainfall issue as the top story on their site (again in English)
TRMM

Given what dag said earlier about the state of all the other dams in the DR made me re-evaluate the sort of advice I offer to people who write asking me 'which areas in DR are safe?' Their questions relate to crime, of course, but in future I think I'll be advising against buying property anywhere near a dam or near a river which could flood as a result of a dam opening. And when you look at the map of where dams and rivers are, that puts a lot of areas off limits.
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